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The Secret Tips For Getting Booked on Podcasts (Episode 18)

Trevor Oldham is a 23-year-old entrepreneur, author, and founder and CEO of Podcasting You. Podcasting You is a done-for-you podcast booking agency that enables six and seven-figure individuals to speak to their ideal audience and increase leads, attract new customers, and grow their brand. 

Prior to Podcasting You, Trevor started “Become The Lion” – a motivational based company that grew to over 600,000 followers in the first year. He’s on a mission to teach entrepreneurs that age is not a factor when it comes to success. 

What you will learn

  • The podcaster that has just made $100 million from his podcast
  • The content creation secrets of top podcasters
  • Who should be on your team to create, publish and promote your podcast
  • Why a successful podcast is a marathon and not a sprint
  • The importance of planning and processes for podcasters
  • How to use freelancing sites as a search engine for finding what people want
  • The secret to getting booked on podcasts 
  • Top tips for young entrepreneurs
  • How to build a company with remote employees
  • How to go from freelancing to building a company
  • How to overcome perceived limitations
  • How to grow a massive social media following

Transcript

Jeff Bullas: Hi everyone, and welcome to the Jeff Bullas show. This is Jeff Bullas, and today we're going to be interviewing a young entrepreneur by the name of Trevor Oldham. Before we have a chat, what I'm going to do is I'm just going to introduce him, and I'm going to do a little bit of bragging about Trevor, because it's not a good, cool thing to brag about yourself, apparently. Well, Aussies aren't allowed to brag about themselves. It's a thing called the tall poppy syndrome. It's alive and well in Australia. We don't like to brag about ourselves. I'm going to brag about Trevor first.

Jeff Bullas: Trevor Oldham is a young entrepreneur that started up three companies before even graduating college. He is a serial entrepreneur and a walking example of you can run a business regardless of your age. His most recent venture, Podcasting You, works with successful individuals to get them booked on podcasts.

Jeff Bullas: Prior to Podcasting You, Trevor started a motivational company that grew to over 600,000 followers in its first year and a tee shirt company, Trevor James Products that provides clean water to those in developing countries. Welcome to the show Trevor. It's great to see your smiling face from the other side of the world and safe. Let's cut straight to the chase here. How did you get into being an entrepreneur? Obviously it's a bit of an entrepreneurial gene that's happened or happened to you. Tell us how you got into starting businesses.

Trevor Oldham: I think growing up, I was mowing lawns, buying, selling baseball cards and would go to stores like TJ Maxx, Marshall's buy and sell, Ed Hardy clothing, sell it on eBay, even door to door lemonade selling and just really started, I mean, just small little businesses, never knew it was a business, never it was called so "entrepreneurship." It was more just a way for me to go out and make money on my own terms and have no cap to my income and I started really there. Then I went through school, like any normal US citizen would go and got that, you have to get a job sort of feed into myself. In high school, still wasn't really that sure entrepreneurship, staring a business. I had been working a job at a local sporting goods store, was making $7 an hour.

Trevor Oldham: After three months, I got a raise to $7 and three cents an hour. A three cent raise. That really wasn't going to cut it for me. I wasn't sure what to do next. I found a book. It was the differences between the lower middle and upper class. It had mentioned that the upper class, the majority of individuals started their own business. I was like, "Hey, I started small things. Why can't I start a business?" I think I got to researching, the book had given some ideas. One of the ideas was to import products from Alibaba or AliExpress. For those of you who don't know, it's basically you're importing products directly from China. From there, I imported 50 phone cases. It was around $80.

Trevor Oldham: Sold those on eBay. Quickly learned if you buy, at that time, I'm sure they've cleaned it up, but if you buy a brand named product from China, it's probably going to be knockoffs. The customers who know and love that product and bought it before are going to most certainly tell you. That was my first lesson, but still wanted to keep going. I found these bracelets and watches on their bracelets, they were a dollar and I sold them for 18.99. Watches, $2, sold them for $20.99 and grew a brand working with influencers, getting the product out there. That's the company where I partnered with a charity called Waves for Water, so we don't need a portion of every sale to this company. I think I felt like I still wanted to do more.

Trevor Oldham: On one hand, I was getting products from China, but on the other hand, I was donating to this charity. It felt really good on one end, felt really bad on the other. Just ethically, I always want to do something more. Started Become The Lion to just inspire other people like myself around the same age and that company took off, it grew to like 600,000 followers. I even had my own podcasts for a time, books, blogs, courses, you name it. But what I really learned with that business is, just because you create motivational content and at times develop this massive following, doesn't mean that people are going to purchase your product. After about three years or so, I felt as though I was burnt out. I was spending more money on the company than I was making.

Trevor Oldham: I just felt like I really needed to change. Recently, I left the company, it was with a partner and then I left to one of my own. Basically, no idea what to do next and used my skills. Started freelancing here and there. I'm on a site called Upwork. Anyone can check it out. I got a little bit back into the business groove from there. Someone on the site was looking to get booked on podcasts. I was like, "Hey, I booked guests on my own show. I booked myself on some shows. Maybe I can get her booked on shows." No real idea how to do it, but I started working with her, got her booked on some shows, found some more clients through Upwork.

Trevor Oldham: Then those clients gave me some referrals and it started to build. Then I put some marketing power behind it and it grew and it was profitable and I seem to enjoy it. That was how that, my business now, now we're on Podcasting You, got started. I didn't wake up one day and I was like, "Oh, people want to get booked on podcasts?" it was more just like this one lady, who I still work with today, actually, after all these years, my first client I still work with and it's more like she wants this service, I can provide this service. Other people want the service that I can provide to them and it pays me money, whereas Become The Lion, I wasn't making really that much money and I was spending too much time. When I found something that I can make money and I enjoyed, I don't enjoy every aspect of the business, but do enjoy it enough, and probably just kept on going with Podcasting You, and I guess that's where we are today.

Jeff Bullas: The second company, what was the name of that? That's the motivational company. That's...

Trevor Oldham: That's “Become The Lion”.

Jeff Bullas: Okay. It's interesting. A lot of people go, "Well, I'm generating this much revenue," but the real thing, as you discovered, which is essential to being an ongoing entrepreneur is you need to make profit. So was that a challenge? You were actually spending more than you were making.

Trevor Oldham: Yeah. So basically, for every $100 we were spending, we're generating $50 in revenue. So obviously, we're losing $50 every time. But given every day, every week, every month compounded over a couple of years time, plus I was going to school at this time, but I mean, outside of that, every pretty much waken hour, I was working on this company, every week and I was working on this company and it was just like I'd given up so much in my life and yet I still wasn't making any, I don't want to say any money, but I wasn't pulling any money out of the company. I was reinvesting everything back in and I just felt that it was just time to just, I guess, let it go and see where the next adventure takes me. That's what I really learned is I believe in the company, I loved what I was doing, but the company wasn't making any money and just because I love with it, and I think that it's a great company and I have this large following, but the market's going to tell you if it's successful or not.

Trevor Oldham: You can have a brand with a million followers and you create a book and it sells 10 copies. Then that's what the marketplace is telling you. And that's what I really learned. That's what I took into the Podcasting You business is, not necessarily that I ever wanted to get people booked on podcasts, but the marketplace was telling me that that's what people wanted and that's a service that I could offer, and that's something I've learned. So I think anyone that's starting a business, it's not necessarily what you want to do, it's more what the marketplace tells you what you want to do. And you'll learn quickly when you're out there and you create a product or service and you go to sell it. If no one goes and buys it, then you know.

Trevor Oldham: It's fine, it's fun. That's something you want to continue down that road. But if you kind of with a product and people start coming to you, you get referrals, then you know you sort of have a platform to build a business on. And I highly recommend that site Upwork, that helped me really get the size of the business I am now. And you can just search, even if you don't want to find jobs on there, if you just have ideas, you could just search it. If you wanted to start a social media agency, you could type in social media on Upwork and it'll bring you all of these relevant jobs and you can see exactly what people are looking for. And maybe you have some of the skills and you can apply, or you can just see what's out there and sort of see if your idea is valuable.

Jeff Bullas: That's really interesting. I hadn't thought of Upwork as a search engine tool too. I suppose, evaluate the beat of the street a little bit, because you could go and see what the volume is around a key term, couldn't you? So if you typed in social media, you'd say how many people are vying or competing for that space in terms of providing services. So that's actually quite interesting in the sense that Upwork is going to provide an insight into what sort of services are being provided in certain niches, which could really tell you, is this an area that's really trending? Is it going up? Is it going down? Is it hardly anyone on this?

Jeff Bullas: So now podcasting, this is where you are now. It's a fascinating area. And I noticed about a month ago that Joe Rogan, who's one of the superstars in the podcasting world. And he's an “overnight success”. He started only 12 years ago when podcasting actually wouldn't have been even known about. If you said I'm doing a podcast I think 12 years plus ago, people would say, "What does that mean?"

Jeff Bullas: So Joe Rogan sold his rights to his show about a month ago to Spotify for over a hundred million US. Now what's interesting with that is one, it gives you an idea of this new media. New, it's been around a decade plus, but its traction in terms of volume is still quite low compared to blogging. So blogging, for example, there's about a billion plus blogs on the planet now. The last numbers I heard a few weeks ago was there were about 900,000 podcasts, and only about, I think about 50% were active. And by active, that means they may be published five or six shows. So the space of podcasting is actually quite, it's not crowded compared to a lot of other spaces, because there's a lot of moving parts. So tell me a little bit about what you think about this podcasting area. You've been in it a while now you're helping people. Tell me about your insights into podcasting and where it's going you think?

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, I think it's definitely... I remember when I ran my own show in 2015, I found not that many people knew about podcasting back then. And I can just tell you just from looking on Upwork, if you typed in podcast jobs, looking for a job in the podcast industry three years ago, there were probably 100 openings. Now there's about 900 openings. So you can just tell how great it's increasing and then you can see sort of... I feel once you start to see some of these corporate giants come in and produce their own podcasts, let's say if it's a Fidelity Investments, when they see value in podcasting and they know that they can speak to their target audience and whoever that may be, I'm sure it's... Investors then, when you start to get these corporate giants investing money in, and there's a lot of times, I'm sure it takes a long time to get the podcast set up and moving and that sort of thing, when they start to come in, now that's where I think it's starting to be really big and you start to see a lot of people starting their own podcasts.

Trevor Oldham: But I think to anyone that's starting their own podcast and I'm sure Jeff, you is one who know, it's not as easy as it looks. There's a lot that goes behind the scenes. And I think that's one of the reasons why there might be a billion blogs out there versus 900,000 podcasts because I knew I can go out and start a blog. Anyone can go out and start a podcast. But a podcast, there's more work that goes into it. There's recording, there's editing, there's guest booking, there's all that. And then even having to create content from the podcast to put on a website, there's all these additional parts. But I think the reason not... I think people, when it comes to podcasting, if you put in the work, it's going to be super-beneficial for you. And whether that's you going on podcasts and sharing your story, whether it's starting your own podcast, I think it's just going to continue to rise. And I think it's something that people love.

Trevor Oldham: I mean, I know when I'm in the car, when I'm driving around, I'm always listening to podcasts instead of having to listen to the radio. And there's pretty much podcasts on any genre you want. Some days I want to listen to the Joe Rogan show, some days I want to listen to Mike Dillard's podcast, some days if I need a laugh, I'll listen to a comedy podcast. There's podcasts in every different industry. I just think we're still, I don't want to say at the beginning stages, because I've been around for a little while now, but I think over time, they're just continued to grow and people are going to see the value in them. So I think it might become saturated, but I think the way that you can say, I was having good quality show, you're making sure everything sounds professional, because I'm sure there's going to be people that go out there and start a podcast with no idea what they're doing and that sort of thing.

Trevor Oldham: There's tools out there. You can research how to start a podcast, what I should do before I start podcasting, you want to make sure you sound professional, in case the market does become saturated, it allows you to stand above the marketplace.

Jeff Bullas: Yes. The podcast area, it is a lot of moving parts and I was fully aware of that, because I've had this blog since 2009. And yes, you're right. You set it up and you write, and you hit publish, and you're done, right? It could be good, bad or quite ugly. Mine was quite ugly early. So we got more professional over time. Now the podcast, I bought all the gear for this podcast four years ago. And I realized there was a lot of work to do to actually set it up, to edit. So, I didn't really have the team at the time to help me with the whole editing process, the process of publishing. So, I put the podcast stuff in the cupboard and I only took about three and a half years before I pulled it out and said, I've got to start this. And it happened after a conversation before Christmas in 2019, a few months ago, to realize that it was time to do the work.

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, exactly.

Jeff Bullas: As I went through just the setup phase, I realized why I hadn't started it, because it was a lot of work, right? I had to find a sound editor. I had to make sure they had podcast tabs set up on the site. I had to make sure it was edited properly, we had to get the banners right, we had to get onto iTunes, we had to get into Spotify, we had to host on Libsyn, we had to work on the quality of the sound, had to get a good microphone. The list goes on. And then, you've got to do that every week. So it comes down to having a good process. Now I looked at Joe Rogan's first few podcasts on YouTube and I'll tell you what, he was really rough and ready. It's very authentic. And I went, "Look, you've got to start somewhere. And that's the reality in anything." So yeah, the whole podcast area fascinates me. And one of the benefits I've found too, is that you can create a lot of content in multiple formats.

Jeff Bullas: So for example, we're recording the audio here. We're also recording in video. We'll also turn that into a transcript, which is like a long form blog post, essentially. So people could read it if they don't want to listen to it or watch it. And then we use, create banners, which we used on social media, and the list goes on. So one event can be turned into multiple pieces of content, and that's what I really love about it. So what do you think are the benefits for people that want to get into podcasting Trevor? Because I've had a few and I've experienced quite a few of them, but what do you see as the benefits of starting a podcast?

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, I think the number one benefit is being able to network with people that are on your show. And I think that for me, that was a big learning curve. At least when I had my own podcasts of being able to have these successful individuals on. If you go to someone, whoever you might look up, whatever industry you're in and you go to them and say, "Hey, can I have a quick 15, 30 minute phone call?" They're most likely going to say, "No, get out of here." But if you say, "Hey, can you come on my show? We'll have a quick 15, 30 minute podcast interview. I'll promote you to my audience." Then I find that people are way more receptive. And it allows you to get sort of in with the sort of people that you want to talk to, and sort of establish yourself as an expert within your industry.

Trevor Oldham: If you're having a podcast, let's say you're just beginning as an entrepreneur, and you talk to entrepreneurs who are 10 levels above you. Just having your name associated with that person is going to allow you to sort of elevate and people will start to see you being associated with that person. And then you can go out, like you'd mentioned Jeff, there's so many different forms of content that you can create. With the blog posts, you can pretty much only create just that blog post and then you publish it, you might run it through an email list, put it on social media. But with a podcast we could do this interview, you could post it, you could possibly take multiple snippets from it, put it on social media, create a blog post out of it, using a transcription service, social media content. There's just so many different avenues where podcasting is just not just one dimensional, where you can pretty much take your interview that you've done and then use it in so many different areas. I just don't know any other sort of form of marketing that allows you to do that.

Jeff Bullas: I'm basically a content marketer and content, when you look at podcasting with clear eyes and realize that you can create literally a doesn't different types of content around the podcast, just from the one event, you go, I could really create some content that can scale, and that was one part of it. The other one that certainly that pushed me to start was the relationship building side. And I've been in this industry as in social media, marketing, digital marketing, digital entrepreneurship, and writing about it since 2009. For me, it was actually being able to meet some of my heroes as well, people that have changed the world in their own way in their own niche from France to the USA, to people living in Malta to New Zealand, to Australia, to Massachusetts. So what is really fun about it is this relationship building and nurturing that adds a whole new layer.

Jeff Bullas: And what's not to like about having a fireside chat from the other side of the world, with a person that is passionate about what they do? And that's what I love about it. Number one, is the way you can build relationships through podcasting and then the benefits flow from there. And that's one of the things I said, well, it's now time to take what I'm doing to another level, and the podcast started because of that. So what are some of the other challenges you see with running a podcast? Because a lot of people start a podcast and I've heard the numbers, I can't remember the exact ones. But there are a lot of people who start a podcast and give up after five or six episodes just like bloggers do. So, what do you think are some of the other challenges apart from just getting it started and then the process, what are some of the other challenges you think?

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, I think number one, anyone that's thinking about starting a podcast, you definitely want to make sure you have, I usually recommend it if someone's starting a podcast, like three months worth of content. So that way, you don't have to go in and record. I think if someone's going to create a podcast and it's going to fail, they're going to record an episode on a Wednesday that has to be out on a Thursday. You're just not giving yourself a good timeline. So make sure you have enough episodes in the can. And one of the biggest things is editing. Editing a podcast, it might seem scary. In the beginning, and I know when I did it, I used Pat Flynn. He has a tutorial on YouTube that walks you pretty much step-by-step on how to edit a podcast.

Trevor Oldham: And I remember the first time when I had been editing mine, it took me I don't know, five, six hours out of the first episode. And it takes a while, but over time you're going to learn it by like the fifth, sixth episode. Using these tools and using these software that are out there, it becomes a lot easier to edit your podcasts. And then I think too, when you're starting your own show, you might be like, go in, publish your show. And after three months you have 10 people that are listening to each episode and that might make you feel a little bit down. But just think about if you were in a room and you were speaking to 10 people that were your ideal audience, I'm sure that you'd be happy with that. And everyone's got to start somewhere.

Trevor Oldham: So, not letting the sort of those numbers... And you kind of have to... If you enjoy, if you're building relationships, not so much care about the number of statistics that you're putting out, because those numbers will come. It's not a get rich quick sort of thing. I couldn't go out, create a podcast today, and have a large following on the podcast tomorrow, unless, of course, you have a big personal brand behind it. But for those of you who don't, it's a longterm strategy, it's something that you have to know that you have to invest time.

Trevor Oldham: It's not something that you can just say, "Oh, I want to go out and start a podcast," and have no sort of game plan behind it. So some of the things that people might struggle with is just not having enough episodes, being a little down on themselves about the number of downloads they get. And I think those are really some of the things that I could see preventing someone from starting a podcast. And of course the editing piece. But it's all a learning curve. It's all going to be new to you. And after the first month or so, you're going to start to get it a little bit more. And even if you do have a podcast, and you're interviewing people, you might sound terrible the first couple of episodes. And just understand that that's okay. You know, you're not made to sound perfect.

Trevor Oldham: You're not a perfect person. Maybe you should go to the top tier people in your niche that you're trying to talk to. Maybe you go for some of, maybe, friends and family that you know that are successful in your industry, and start out there. It's one of those things, it's a long term strategy, and it's not something that you think you could start today and have a massive following tomorrow, which is... it's just something that you have to take in over time, and you sort of have to be in it for the long haul.

Jeff Bullas: I totally agree. I love the term, which I use all the time for people that are afraid to start. Done is better than perfect. That's it. So, it's something that a lot of... I think the numbers show that about 50% of people tend to lean towards getting things just right before they ever start anything. So, just getting it done, and then starting. The reality is that you're not going to get it right.

Jeff Bullas: My show is still early. I'm still learning a lot. I've surrounded myself with some really good people. My editor, who makes sure it's published on the blog, with the links. I had to get it set up. That was my marketing tech guy. Then there was the editor. And for me, actually, I don't edit my show. It's not a skill that I'm very good at. So, I just send it off to Dave, and Dave waves his magic, and gets it back to me. But certainly, the important part for me too was making sure there was a process. And that's what good business is about, is creating processes that make things easy, or as easy as possible. So where do you see podcasting going? You've been in the industry now for a few years. So where do you see podcasting going? I think Joe Rogan's a little bit of an indicator, a leading indicator of that.

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, I think there's going to be large investments, just like Joe's show. Obviously, he started so many years ago. So he had that, sort of that foothold, but to get that 100 million dollar licensing contract that he got, I'm sure there's going to be similar platforms, especially you've got the big players out there. You have Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, all those sorts of avenues. And I think that there's going to be sort of that competition where, if it goes well... Spotify was that first one to pay Joe Rogan that massive deal. I'm sure there's other podcasts out there like, How I Built This. That's one of those top tier shows that's like Top 10 on iTunes. If it goes well with Joe Rogan, I'm sure you'll see another company like that, get that sort of massive deal.

Trevor Oldham: And then, whether that's to say strictly on Apple, or that's to move over to Spotify, I think you're going to start to see some of those more lucrative deals, and those companies can see how... If you look at... If you type in podcast statistics, you'll see the numbers just going up every single year. Pretty much since it started, it was sort of a flat line. And then it sort of went into a hockey stick. Not as steep as a hockey stick, but it's gone up. I think brands realize that that's where people are going to be. So Spotify knows, if people can only listen to the Joe Rogan show on our platform, then I'm going to get them on. Either one, people are going to pay for our platform, or two, I'm just going to every 20 minutes in sort of Joe Rogan podcast, I'm going to put my, we're going to put our own ads in there, for those people who don't want to pay for the premium.

Trevor Oldham: And I think it's going to be super valuable to the Spotify brand. They're going to realize that. As an advertiser, it's going to be pretty good for them to be able to get a spot on Joe Rogan's show I mean, I don't know if that's exactly what's going to happen, but I mean, I would assume if I was Spotify, that's exactly how I would do it, because I know when you're listening to songs, if you don't have premium, they throw an ad in there every three or four songs, and whatnot. I'm assuming they're going to do that same sort of revenue generating activity for themselves. So I think it's a win for pretty much everyone in the industry.

Jeff Bullas: Yeah, definitely. It's interesting having a look at the numbers and what around... And I'm going to use Joe as an example, because I think this is a, I think, a shift in the market, in that a big brands realize the value of the podcasts. And I believe Spotify actually has bought another podcast recently. I can't remember which one that was as well. But if you have a look at Joe's numbers, he's got over two billion views on his YouTube channel, which is his podcast recording video. He gets, I believe, 200 million downloads a month. Now Spotify paid him, a hundred million is the reported figure. Now, think about a media company that's got two billion YouTube views, and it's got 200 million downloads a month. I think a hundred million dollars is actually quite cheap.

Trevor Oldham: Absolutely

Jeff Bullas: Like seriously. I think that is actually a low figure. But I'm sure Joe's happy. The numbers he earns reportedly, before that deal, was about 30 million a year from sponsorships. That's not bad. Tim Ferriss is another one that's had over 400 million downloads. Pat Flynn, for example, who you mentioned before, his shows had over 40 million downloads. And of course, Pat is an overnight success after about 10 years.

Trevor Oldham: Yes

Jeff Bullas: So you're right. Playing the long game is really, really important. And you've just got to be patient. We've just signed our first sponsorship deal. So, that will be visible in the next month or two. So, you just got to be playing a long game. And you're right, it's... If you're looking at early numbers, say, you're going, well, I'm not getting the numbers. But for me, it's much more relationship building exercise where you can really just chew the fat, have a fireside chat, and just enjoy sharing... We call it the Oprah effect, sharing people's expertise with the world. In other words, shine a light on them. And that's what I love doing. I've met the most fascinating people, from the energy industry that are disrupting energy globally with peer to peer energy trading, blockchain, through to people that are changing CRM industry globally. And there's just a bunch of them.

Jeff Bullas: But yeah, it's really interesting to watch, and I've certainly think we're at the cusp of a pretty exciting time, the whole podcasting area. So tell me a little bit about how you help people get onto podcasts. What's the process around that? How do you engage with them?

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, sure. So essentially, what we'll do is we'll work with someone, we'll create a podcast pitch for them. We'll create a media kit for them. And then we'll also, we basically on our end, just from years and years of research, we've compiled databases of shows. And then we'll just go back through base... I guess to start, we have all of our clients fill out a questionnaire, go through their target audience and then based off that, we'll go into our database, pull shows. So we'll create a list of shows that we think a client would be a fit for. We really like to target a target audience, even though sometimes the client will come to us and they want to be on the biggest shows. But if those biggest shows aren't targeting their target audience, and even if we do get them on there, it's probably going to be a waste of their money.

Trevor Oldham: So we really hone in on that target audience piece. And we really make sure that they understand that. So once we have that pitch, that media kit and the database created for the client, then our team will reach out to the podcast host and be like, "Hey..." And then most, I guess literally an example, "Hey, we have a guest. Here's why he should be a guest on your show. X, Y, and Z." And the host will say, "Yes, I'd like to have him on." And then the booking process gets initiated from there.

Trevor Oldham: So our goal as a company, anyone can go out there and get themselves booked on podcasts. There's tons of resources on how to do that. Basically what our company does is we just save people time, sort of like podcast editing. Anyone can go out and podcast edit, but it's like, do you want your time back? So that's what our company does. We just help people get booked on shows with their target audience.

Trevor Oldham: We have these relationships built with these hosts, with the goal where once someone fills out that questionnaire, our team production does all that legwork. And then from there just sending the client over a booking link, once they have an interview ready to go and ready to book. So, we really cut down on the time from the client having to create their own pitch, their own media kit, research their own shows. I think more than us creating a media kit and creating a pitch for a client, I think the biggest thing is just having shows researched. I mean, I've spent myself starting the company, countless hours sifting through shows to add to our database shows to look at, vetting shows, seeing which ones are good opportunities updating the database. I think that's the biggest piece for our company is just having that database.

Trevor Oldham: I mean, I've spent hundreds of hours of putting that together and honing in on these shows that are out there. And that's something, I mean, I knew when anyone could do it. There's a platform called listennotes.com, that someone could go and search for podcasts. But I think that's where our company really comes in and saves you that time on that research piece, instead of having you go out there and research these shows, because that's the thing that's going to take someone the longest amount of time and something that I've delegated to my team because I hated it so much, even though I did it for the first, for the first year or so.

Trevor Oldham: But even to research 10 quality good shows for myself, it would be like an hour or two hours worth of work. And it was just like clicking, checking them out on iTunes, check out the website. And it was just very tedious. And I think just really that database is I think, in my mind is why people would want to pay us so they don't have to go out and do all that tedious work. And too, we've had these relationships built with these hosts just from having clients on them over the years.

Jeff Bullas: Yeah. Well it is a lot of work because you've got to basically reach out. You've got to do follow up. So I believe one of your team reached out to me didn't they?

Trevor Oldham: They did, correct.

Jeff Bullas: Yep. And what were some of the criteria there? For example, what was, why did you reach out to the Jeff Bullas show?

Trevor Oldham: So one, just for me it was just, I just wanted to speak to an entrepreneurial audience. I had done podcast interviews in the past and then I spent the last three years running my company, getting people booked on podcasts. And I was like, "I haven't really got myself booked on any podcasts. Maybe, I'm doing all this work for other people, maybe I could get booked on?"

Trevor Oldham: My goal is just to, whether it's inspiring someone through entrepreneurship or exploring someone in the world of podcast marketing or being a podcast guest, starting their own podcasts and so on, I'm really just looking for shows that fit that criteria and of course your show, fit right into that criteria perfectly.

Jeff Bullas: Yeah. It's when I saw the environment that's interesting and then checked out Travis said, "Oh, he's actually helping people get onto podcasts." I said," Well, he's eating his own dog food. That's really, really cool." Okay. So that's great. Now podcasting is, as we know, starting to grow a fair bit. The future for me is it's basically another media company.

Jeff Bullas: And I think one of the things I noticed and I'm going to go back to Joe again I'm maybe using him way too much, but that's okay. It's a great example of longevity playing a long game. He's now at a point where I'm sure people are begging and knocking down his door to be on the show. So one of the I think secret sauce components to what he's doing is he not only does the audio, but he actually recorded it on YouTube from day one.

Jeff Bullas: And I don't know if people know, but YouTube is actually the second biggest search engine on the planet after Google. And there's a few others knocking on the door or trying to. Bing's been trying. We've also got Amazon is actually emerging as quite a big search engine as well.

Jeff Bullas: So the secret sauce, part of the secret sauce to Joe's success, it was playing long game, number one. Number two, I think creating another format such as video. And that's what's great about, we're using Zoom here today. And Zoom actually has gone from being the name of a product to a verb now. In other words, are you, it used to be Google became a verb. I'm going to Google, I'm going to Zoom. So the reality is that Zoom, and I love using it. I was using Skype a bit before, but Zoom just makes it so much easier.

Jeff Bullas: You can create, put the audio into different channels. So your audio is on a different channel to mine or stream as a file. It records it in video. It automatically uploads it to your computer or into the cloud. In fact, I had a little faux pas here because I've added a new feature in the last few weeks, which is you don't, you actually have to hit record twice. Number one, hit record as you start the show and then it asks you, do you want to save it to the cloud? Or do you want to save it to the computer? And because it's a new feature I actually didn't hit the second button. But essentially it's a very easy channel to use, a platform to use Zoom and I've really enjoyed using it.

Jeff Bullas: And I'm not a programmer, technophile. I play in the tech industry, but I'm not a programmer. It's not where I play. It's more, the creating and writing part is what I really enjoy.

Jeff Bullas: But the secret sauce I believe for Joe was amongst many other things, but I think a major component was creating it on YouTube as a video file. What do you think about that aspect of podcasting? And do you see many people doing that or were they, a lot of them are just playing on audio?

Trevor Oldham: I mean, I think if we're going to spend, however much time, 45 minutes, an hour together to, that's time that I spent. That's time that you spent. Why not give us both the benefit and putting it on YouTube? You could go out and create a video as a title, "Watch this if you're interested in starting your podcast." And then it could be our interview put together for someone that's interested in starting a podcast, or even if you took a five minute chunk of the total interview and put that on there, I don't see why anyone would want to do a podcast interview without video, unless they're not comfortable with that, but the benefits that you would get being on video. There's so many different things and so many different ways that you can use that content.

Trevor Oldham: Especially, like you mentioned, on YouTube and being the second biggest search engine behind Google, if people are searching how to start a podcast on Google, I'm sure that they're searching how to start a podcast on YouTube. If you put out enough quality content, I'm sure over time it'll get picked up and people will start to follow you. Whether that's something that your business does or something that you're helping out people, like for Pat Flynn.

Trevor Oldham: I don't think his big thing is so much teaching people how to start a podcast where it's more as teaching people how to create passive income, but I'm sure people who don't even know about him come to his page just from the video on how to start a podcast. They start to check him out, see what his podcast is and be willing to do a couple episodes. Then they become a fan, where it's a totally unrelated piece of content than what his business is centered on.

Jeff Bullas: Yeah. What we did when we started is we did record it in video, right from the word go, but what I did do, I didn't actually go around to publish it on a separate YouTube channel first. I just said, let's focus on getting the audio side right. Let's make sure we get that process nailed, because what we did is we created a bank of videos which were just sitting in the cloud on Google drive. And we've just recently put them up unedited, because we believe that keeping it authentic at the moment, where we have a little banter before we start and have a chat, which I really loved that. That's really keeps it real. We've only just published the podcast on YouTube recently. There's more to do there as well. Like you mentioned, you can actually take a little snippet of the i hour video and turn it into a 5 minute video of highlights.

Jeff Bullas: In other words, best of type snippets. This is what's really exciting about creating content, whether it's video, whether it's audio, whether it's images, whether it's live streaming, which we're starting to do a little bit. Some people are doing live streaming and podcasts right from the word go as well. The opportunities are playing a long game, relationship building, to creating content, to opening the doors to new business, they're all in the frame. We're very aware of the time. Trevor, before we finish, what would be some top tips, maybe two or three, that you would recommend to podcasters that maybe have started and paused or podcasters that want to start? What would be two or three top tips that you'd recommend to podcasters that may be about to start, want to start, or have started?

Trevor Oldham: I think number one would be, have a game plan in place. Along with that game plan, have episodes put in place, because you're just not going to want to interview every single week or record every single week, just to get a podcast out that week. You want to have a built up reservoir of episodes, so that would definitely be number one, making sure you have these podcasts and the backlog. If you had to go two months without recording, for whatever reason, you want to take a break, that would give you that option to do so, but I'm sure when you do these interviews, if you've done 20 or so, so far, then you're going to enjoy it and you're going to want to keep going.

Trevor Oldham: You're probably not going to want to take a two month break, but definitely have a good backlog of shows. Two, understand it's going to be difficult in the beginning. It's not going to be easy, whether that's yourself recording your own episodes, doing a solo episode, over to that too, bringing on podcasts guests. You're going to sound pretty stupid at times and it's just the nature of the game, that anyone who starts off a podcast, I know Jeff you've mentioned Joe Rogan Show on YouTube. I know I can go back and watch it and see how mashed up everything sounded, how there might've been awkward pauses and so on. That's just the nature of the game and you look at him now and he sounds like an absolute professional, everything flows perfectly, but that came after what? 1400, 1500 episodes, however many he did.

Trevor Oldham: Don't become discouraged in the beginning. And be in it for the long haul. Podcasting, it isn't the be all and end all. You don't have to create blog posts. You don't have to do social media. You only do podcasts. I think it's a good function of all different areas of marketing, where podcasting is one area of marketing within your strategy, versus having it be that number one source where... I'm sure Joe's number one source is probably the podcast. If you check out his social media, he does take snippets from his interviews and he's always putting them out there. That's just an example of him using that content, but use it as part of your marketing strategy, not just to be your only part of the marketing strategy.

Trevor Oldham: I know we've touched on many different types of content that you can create, whether it's social media, YouTube, blog post, from an interview that you can use. It benefits all the different areas of marketing within your business.

Jeff Bullas: Yeah. Another thing that I've noticed too, it does add some gravitas to your brand, because you're going, okay, they're interviewing these people. These people have done some seriously cool shit and it adds gravitas. For me, just having a chat and building a relationship with some, I find intriguing people, people who have navigated some tough times, come through the other side. It doesn't mean that those tough times won't come back. Life shows up. It shows up for all of us and we never know when that's going to happen, but you've got to push through.

Jeff Bullas: So thanks Trevor for being on the show. It's been an absolute pleasure. And all the best with future. Before we wind it up here, how can people find Trevor and maybe want to use you to get on other podcasts? How can they do that?

Trevor Oldham: Yeah, most certainly. They can go to our company podcastingyou.com. Then if anyone has any questions, whether entrepreneurship or specifically in the garage to the podcast space, whether that's even starting your own show, not necessarily even getting booked on podcasts, feel free to email me, trevor@podcastingyou.com and I'll be happy to answer any questions you have.

Jeff Bullas: All right. Thank you very much. It's been great to have a chat 20,000 kilometers, social distancing. And I believe we are still safe, which is great.

Trevor Oldham: Yeah.

Jeff Bullas: And thanks for being on the show, it's been an absolute pleasure.

Trevor Oldham: Perfect. Thank you. I appreciate it.

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