Aytekin Tank is the founder of Jotform. His journey from starting Jotform in 2006 to leading a platform with 25 million users is a compelling example of innovation and perseverance. Aytekin’s experience in the tech industry could offer your audience a unique perspective on integrating AI into business processes and enhancing productivity.
Aytekin is also a frequent contributor to Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Fast Company, sharing his insights on entrepreneurship and technology. An interview with him could provide valuable content for your show, offering practical insights into scaling a tech company and leveraging AI effectively.
What you will learn
- How Aytekin Tank founded Jotform and grew it to 25 million users by solving a common problem.
- The power of bootstrapping a business and scaling it slowly for sustainable growth.
- The role of AI in automating mundane tasks, such as form creation, to enhance productivity.
- How AI agents can replace forms, improving customer interactions and efficiency.
- The importance of aligning technology with real-world customer needs to drive innovation.
- Strategies for managing a successful company with minimal external funding while staying focused on long-term goals.
Transcript
Jeff Bullas
00:00:11 – 00:01:19
Hi, everyone and welcome to the Jeff Bullas show today. I Have with me Aytekin Tank, who I think is actually dialing in from Turkey. So Aytekin Tank is the founder of Jotform. His journey from starting Jotform in 2006 to leading a platform with 25 million users is a compelling example of innovation and perseverance. Aytekin’s experience in the tech industry could offer your audience a unique perspective on integrating AI into business processes and enhancing productivity.
Aytekin is also a frequent contributor to Forbes, Entrepreneur, and Fast Company, sharing his insights on entrepreneurship and technology. An interview with him could provide valuable content for your show, offering practical insights into scaling a tech company and leveraging AI effectively.
Jeff Bullas
00:01:19 – 00:01:23
Welcome to the show Aytekin . It’s actually a big pleasure to have you here.
Aytekin Tank
00:01:24 – 00:01:29
Hello, Jeff. Uh Good to be on your show and it’s a pleasure uh to be on your show.
Jeff Bullas
00:01:30 – 00:01:49
So uh te it’s 2006 and you start jot form. Where did this all start from? What was the inspiration like, how hard, what was a call for you to start to form? Was there a problem?
Aytekin Tank
00:01:50 – 00:02:15
Um Right out of college, I started working for this uh media company in New York. Uh And I worked there for five years and I was this programmer. Uh I was a developer and one of my duties was to create forms like, and we had like over 100 websites and I would create all kinds of forms like uh questionnaires, surveys, you know, payment forms.
Aytekin Tank
00:02:16 – 00:02:44
Um And I actually didn’t like it much. Like I didn’t want to spend time, like, uh you know, creating forms, it was boring, like I wanted to work on more challenging tasks. And uh I actually looked for a product that can actually help me with that. I couldn’t find a product. And because I had like, you know, I was working with so many editors and they had like, they needed like so many forms that I actually need, like what kind of uh forms people need. And I always had this idea to start my own company.
Aytekin Tank
00:02:44 – 00:03:13
And I said, OK, maybe, you know, when I start my company, this is what I should do. And then once I was ready at the end of the five years and when I was ready to start my own business, I said this is it, I’m going to start this product, I’m going to call this job form. And yeah, I started the form, business forms business because, you know, I hated forms. I didn’t want to create forms and it actually makes sense because like other people also, you know, don’t know how to create forms or hate creating forms
Aytekin Tank
00:03:13 – 00:03:39
so that, you know, they can actually focus on the form or the automation that brings it the form as opposed to creating the form. So, you know, make it so easy that you can just drag and drop stuff uh on your browser to create a form. And that’s what I try to do. And you know, uh I uh that’s why all the people actually use job for today because it makes it so easy to create forms,
Jeff Bullas
00:03:40 – 00:03:54
right? Sounds a little bit like Uber that the big problem they had was trying to hail a taxi in um Paris and it was just painful, they were cold. So you solved a problem which you were experiencing.
Aytekin Tank
00:03:54 – 00:04:38
Yeah, exactly. Uh I think that’s very important for a founder to have an experience with, with, with this, with this whole problem they are solving. Like if you have an experience, if you understand your customers, that’s gonna make a big difference. Otherwise, like you, you’re constantly trying to find the right solution trying to find the right customers. Uh But because I had so much experience, I was able to build the exact product people needed. And, uh, the one thing I did was I want to make sure that a lot of people try and use this product because it’s so new and I didn’t know how to reach people. So I said it’s all gonna be free. Uh, so I quit my job in 2005 and,
Aytekin Tank
00:04:38 – 00:05:26
uh, I built the product, uh, until like February 2006. And I said it’s all free, like just, you know, just for is free and come and use it. Like, you know, uh at least for the first year it’s going to be free, then we will have like the premium uh editions. But uh you know, so I wanted to get that feedback from people, like I wanted also people to use it and it worked like in 2007, uh a year after I released the free version, I actually released the paid uh plans. And once I released that, like, you know, I only had like 15,000 users using that. And then, you know, 500 of them actually upgraded to become uh paid users. And it turned out to be a great marketing tactic to actually have a free version.
Aytekin Tank
00:05:26 – 00:06:07
And we still have a free version today, like we, you know, 1st 100 submissions. And we actually have that on all of our products. Like we have a product called job from apps. It’s like no code app builder where you can actually add your forms or other things and build a mobile app or like we have a job form sign. It’s an easy solution similar to docusign. And all of our products actually have that. Like you use it for free, you know, only when you actually need a lot more needs. Like when you, when you reach a point that you upgrade, it’s basically a premium and premium works because that’s how we got like 25 million users. Because
Aytekin Tank
00:06:07 – 00:06:39
When you have a premium, like it’s, it actually allows you to meet with people, like just introducing yourself to the people trying your product. There is no like there’s nothing blocking that uh first impression. And once they see how good you are, like we provide customer support to three users, nobody does that. And once they see once they experience uh working with your company, once you create an impression, it’s just easier to, you know, turn them into customers. And even like today, we have an enterprise edition even to turn them into enterprise customers.
Jeff Bullas
00:06:40 – 00:06:41
So
Jeff Bullas
00:06:43 – 00:07:14
the premium thing is actually really important uh because everyone’s something for free. And the reality is how do you get them to upgrade to your premium versions because you can give it away for free to a certain point. But how do you, how do you actually get them to convert? Like is it like restricting the features you have? Obviously that’s part of a premium Um And then you moved on to enterprise customers.
Aytekin Tank
00:07:15 – 00:07:56
Yeah, I make sure that I’m against uh disabling features. Like not what we do is like, we will put a limit like we want people to use all the features. But if, but if they have a big need, uh then they actually go to the paid version, like if, if they need to use the product as a team, uh which actually makes sense because you, you might actually have like many people uh using the forms data, you want to share the data within the company. That’s actually kind of um uh like the enterprise edition is like more for uh like companies that use it as a team as a department or as the, as the whole company. And um
Aytekin Tank
00:07:56 – 00:08:26
and many of the features we have, they uh they actually, you know, you can actually use them as a free user but there are limits. Uh and then, you know, once you actually like it, because we want people to like to try the features, use the features and see how good they are. And once you become like this, this user that like uses all these features and there’s also goodwill like people see that like, hey, you know, this company has provided so much value to us,
Aytekin Tank
00:08:27 – 00:08:47
you know, why don’t we just pay them like, you know, a few dollars uh in return? And you know, that also happens. But um once you actually use it a lot. For example, it forms like you, we have this 100 form submissions per month. Like if you go above that, then you upgrade to the paid plan. And yeah,
Jeff Bullas
00:08:48 – 00:08:49
so
Jeff Bullas
00:08:52 – 00:09:03
you saw the problem in 2005 and going, I think I can do this. I want to work for myself. So, are you a programmer or did you hire people to do it for you
Aytekin Tank
00:09:05 – 00:09:50
before job, before I started job form? I never actually managed anybody. I never, like, I was just this, uh like the, you know, individual contributor, uh lowest ranking ranking, individual contributor, programmer. And, uh and so this is actually one of the beauties of bootstrapping. Um We never received investment, we never received like VC or any other kind of investment. It’s all bootstrapped. So it’s, it’s all like self funded. This actually means that it was very slow. Like the first year it was 2005 to 2006. And then the, uh you know, uh 2, 2006 to 7, it’s, you know, once the company started,
Aytekin Tank
00:09:50 – 00:10:18
uh it’s, I don’t know, I hired my first employee and then the second employee. So for the first five years, like I was just hiring one additional employee every year, this actually allowed me to grow. Like this allowed me to learn the roles, like learn how to become a manager. I learned marketing, I learned, uh you know, business like all the things that I need to learn. I had the time because I had this small team that I didn’t have like this big,
Aytekin Tank
00:10:18 – 00:10:46
you know, uh, you know, big, uh, costs or anything. So, you know, I learned the ropes by just doing them like it’s, you know, not just boots by financing. It’s also bootstrapping in, you know, management and in everything and this is actually great because it’s, I think it’s about the journey. Like when I look back like 10 years ago or 15 years ago, I actually enjoy it as much as I enjoy today.
Aytekin Tank
00:10:46 – 00:11:27
Uh So, but when you have this mindset that like, you have to go quick and you have to exit, like you have to earn this big money and you know, you need to, uh, like just earn millions of dollars and then retire when you have that mindset, you’re not actually enjoying the day. It’s like you are just trying to rush things and it’s not very healthy. And, uh, today I enjoy it in a different way. I can actually, like, focus on a few things. I focused on the job from the journey. And this is actually one of the things that I, I talk, I talk about, which is being a founder versus a CEO,
Aytekin Tank
00:11:27 – 00:12:22
A founder is someone who people assume like me, my title is founder and CEO. And people assume that the founder, part of my title, is about the past. I actually don’t think that. Right. I actually feel like the founder part of my title is about the future. It’s about like, like, I’m responsible for the future of job form. I’m responsible for the future of our team. Uh How can we have healthy growth? How can we continue to grow like 50% every year and how can we continue to have this great culture in our offices? Uh How can we have this product that people are, you know, still satisfied as opposed to trying to like, you know, optimize the revenues and everything like that. I’m looking into the future and in many companies
Aytekin Tank
00:12:22 – 00:13:13
like the uh when the investors decide or the founder decides that, you know, you know, they are gonna exist like, you know, you know, they get their uh money and then they leave the company. What happens is that once there’s no founder, the company actually improves, still improves and optimizes the revenues increase, but in the future, there’s no future. Like, there’s no, like no one is actually thinking about the future. No one is actually uh kind of uh deciding how things should be and then like, how to reinvent themselves. Uh And I think that’s bad. I think it’s, you know, and after that point, there’s no real big innovation happening. So I think founders have this responsibility to continue to reinvent the company product and the people.
Jeff Bullas
00:13:15 – 00:13:17
So you’re playing a long game, aren’t you?
Aytekin Tank
00:13:17 – 00:13:21
Exactly. It’s about playing the long game
Jeff Bullas
00:13:22 – 00:13:43
because, um, quite often we look at, you know, start ups everything. It’s like, how can I make money fast and going? But you’ve done that from an innate, I suppose, space, we’re going, I want to solve this problem. I want to build something that’s sustainable.
Aytekin Tank
00:13:44 – 00:13:45
Exactly.
Jeff Bullas
00:13:46 – 00:14:34
And you’ve done that. And so you’re nearly eight. Well, you’re 18 years old which is fantastic. Oh, look, I heard of you a long time ago. So when uh I was approached to interview you, I went, I’ve heard of these guys, right? Didn’t know you, but that’s actually really cool. So from a starter point of view, it’s bootstrap from both conception and ideas as well as funding. So when do you realize that you said, OK, this is, there’s something happening here. When did that happen? So 2006, you said he launched it 2005, you’re building it. So when you go, something’s happening? What was that? When was that realization?
Aytekin Tank
00:14:35 – 00:15:26
It was right at the launch? Uh I knew that this was the right product and this was gonna become successful because uh when I, when I launched it, there was a big interest. And i’m so uh for liking the pr strategy when I launched it, uh what I wanted to do is uh actually use the technology angle. Um This is 2006. Uh And Gmail just came out, I think 2004 or 2005. And there was this like before then um if you wanted to use software, like you would go and use like this desktop product, like, you know, Microsoft, uh you, you would install it on your operating system, right? And now there are like the sales force was kind of talking about the clouds. Uh you know,
Aytekin Tank
00:15:26 – 00:16:13
and Gmail was actually like, you would go to Gmail and you didn’t have to actually like go from page to page. Like you could just like one page apps were, were uh like this new hype. So my product was kind of the showcase of what can be done with the technologies. So basically this phone builder, you can actually like instantly edit things, which wasn’t very common. At that time, you could just go and edit something, you could just drag and drop stuff on your screen, which today is very common like everybody expected. But at that time, it was like one of the first examples of doing that. And I, I think that one of the reasons was as a developer, I actually like following very closely what’s happening.
Aytekin Tank
00:16:13 – 00:16:36
And if today, if I was actually releasing a new product, I would actually follow what’s going on with A I because it’s the whole all hype and I would use that, you know, hype cycle hype to kind of uh release my product with that because everyone wants to talk about A I and you know, if you, if you release an A I product, it’s very exciting, right? It’s the same way at that time, like
Aytekin Tank
00:16:37 – 00:17:03
making products work on your browser and single page apps that can have drag and drop instant edit, like just, just like uh software wasn’t very common. And once I released that, everybody started talking about that, hey, look at just from like, you know, you can do so much stuff that there are so many things we can do. And I also had a blog and the title of my blog was about,
Aytekin Tank
00:17:03 – 00:17:49
You know, web applications are a feature. And I was talking about how like desktop products, like desktop software was the old and the web was the new and if in the future everything is going to be on the web and people were dismissing me like, you know, how can that happen? Like, you know, you know, you cannot do Photoshop on, people were saying you cannot do Photoshop on desktop. And today we know that that’s not like Sigma actually, you know, even, you know, all these products are now working on, on, on, on browsers as opposed to being a, you know, install of operating system software. Uh So it’s, I think it’s, it’s important like, you know, whatever you, you you as a founder, whatever is your like, you know, powerful, like
Aytekin Tank
00:17:49 – 00:18:14
just uh strongest uh skills that you should focus on. Like, just, just lean on wherever you are strong. And at that time, I was strong at technology because I was following technology because I was building products while I was working for this media company. Uh because I was like, you know, I was following what’s going on and I used that to release it and once I released that, and um
Aytekin Tank
00:18:14 – 00:18:42
people were excited, but it wasn’t just, people were excited that like most people actually came to job for uh to, to know about like what’s going on here. Like, uh they actually started using the product and I, from the day one, I started tracking numbers, like how many people are signing up, how many people are actually creating forms, how many people are receiving form submissions. And I could see that there is a growth, like at the end of the first month, I could see that uh people were using this product.
Aytekin Tank
00:18:42 – 00:19:09
And uh at that time, I was like, I, I installed this forum product. I think it was like ph PB B or something like that. And uh and like just I was providing support uh publicly and even today we provide support publicly because we want people to see that, you know, hey, uh you know, this is like, even for the free product, we have free public support. And um
Aytekin Tank
00:19:10 – 00:20:00
and people actually saw that, you know, when someone actually had a problem and they requested someone something the next day I would reply, hey, it’s done. Like if they reported a bug, I would say it’s fixed now or if they request the feature, I would say, hey, it’s done like try using it like I was so responsive to the to the those like th uh first customers that, that actually created like, you know, when someone actually came to job for. And so that, you know, there is this developer that is actually very responsive, like this uh owner of the product is like very responsible responsive to the Roques that actually created more credibility and uh that results in more people using the product. Um So that’s, you know, from the day, day one, I knew that this was going to become successful.
Jeff Bullas
00:20:00 – 00:20:03
So, were you writing the code for doing this?
Aytekin Tank
00:20:04 – 00:20:52
Yeah, I was alone. Uh in the beginning, I was doing the design and the code and everything. Uh and then the, you know, the uh like 2006 like September, I hired my first employee, I actually moved back to Turkey. I’m from Turkey and I was living in, in the US for nine years. I moved back to Turkey so that I can actually lower my cost. I moved back with my family, like my cost suddenly went to zero like, right. Uh and then I actually opened my first office. I hired my first employee and then the second employee the next year. Song slowly grew. And then a few years later I actually went back to the US and, uh, opened our first office in, in the US in San Franci this time. But yeah, uh, so it’s just, uh, and
Aytekin Tank
00:20:52 – 00:21:44
that, that, that really works as a bootstrapper, I think it’s important to like, have as low cost as possible because as long as you have less expenses than your, like, you have your revenues exceed your expenses, you have unlimited time, right? As long as your product is growing every day and more people are using your product and you have low churn and uh as long as you have more revenue than expense, you can do this, you know, infinite, infinite. Like there’s no limit. And that was the idea and that’s how sales is kind of like that. It’s, it’s, it grows so slowly, very slowly and then like, and if you have low churn, then it starts snowballing after like, you know, five years or three years, like it just takes time to get to that point.
Jeff Bullas
00:21:44 – 00:21:59
Yeah. Yeah. So we’ve seen the rise of A I which allows you to create a lot of content forms processes at the click of a button. So how are you dealing with the impact of A I for your business?
Aytekin Tank
00:22:00 – 00:22:48
Yeah. Um So we have been actually working on this new product for the last year. Uh and we are going to release it uh towards the end of this year. Um And it’s called just from A I. And the basic idea is that um uh we want to basically replace our own business, right? We want to replace forms because if you think about it, forms are kind of uh forms are necessary, right? Because forms are necessary because you wanna uh you need to kind of automate this communication between people. Like if you are, especially if you’re also dealing with people. Uh our top customers are education uh healthcare, you know, not nonprofit, like, you know, we all kinds of like businesses use job for,
Aytekin Tank
00:22:49 – 00:23:25
but these are like, you know, top clients because they deal with other people, right? Uh they deal with things like education, you deal with students, teachers, parents, you know, uh you know, everything like just you have so many things going on and if you have forms, you can actually automate this communication. Like if someone wants to make a request, if someone wants to register for something, if someone needs to pay for something, apply for something like there’s all kinds of needs and this actually uh forms actually automate all this stuff. And uh and it’s great,
Aytekin Tank
00:23:27 – 00:24:05
but one thing that that lacks with forms is um it’s, it kind of lacks uh they’re not very smart, forms are not very smart, like you just fill out the form because they don’t know much about, uh about things. And uh, so you have like, if you have a question while you are filling out a form, you know, uh you don’t, uh you, you cannot ask someone, right? And, uh, and they’re not very fast, like they are kind of slow, like you cannot just speak their form, like just uh uh you have to type and it’s like most of the time, like many people uh kind of spend so much time typing. And um so
Aytekin Tank
00:24:06 – 00:24:25
uh we have this idea that what if instead of filling this form, what if you could just talk to a judge from a, just from A I agent, but instead of filling out a form just from a form, you fill, you talk to a judge from A I agent. And the great thing about this agent is that when you talk to this agent,
Aytekin Tank
00:24:25 – 00:25:17
that the agent actually doesn’t just take your uh information, but it can actually provide the information, it can answer your questions, it can kind of ask you questions to find out about your, you know, business or whatever you are trying to do and it can have a conversa it can this A I agent. Like if you’re selling something, if this is lead generation form, this A I agent can actually become the salesperson and then, you know, sell the product or service. Uh If you are providing support like this. Yeah, this A I agent can have all the information about your product and you can actually train this A I agent so that you can answer your customers about it. Um So, so uh this is great. This is kind of like to like if you think about it and educational administrator,
Aytekin Tank
00:25:17 – 00:26:05
I don’t have time to talk to hundreds of students all the time. Like uh doesn’t have time to explain everything. But if this education administrator can replace themselves with these A I agents, the A I agents can talk to the people on their behalf. So we have been working on this product for a year and then we have been tested with a small better program and we are seeing like, and, and, and we watch all these sessions, right? Uh People having this conversation with the A I agent and my, my biggest worry was like, people would dismiss A I agents like I was like that in the past, like because chatbots were like, they didn’t have any knowledge when you ask chat a chat bot any question like you, you, you don’t get an answer. Like if you get terrible answers, like,
Aytekin Tank
00:26:05 – 00:26:54
and I would always be dismissive about chet baths until like Chey PT came off. And uh and so uh this is actually like changed and people are actually open, people are open to talking to A I agents and people actually talk to them ask questions, learn about stuff and, and if the, if the person who has the, who, who creates this uh A I agent takes the time to train their agent then uh like provides all the information, you know, uploads the PDF files, you know, maybe provide the website URL so that the A I agent can go and, and sometimes the A I agent goes back to go, goes back to the um
Aytekin Tank
00:26:54 – 00:27:21
the owner of the form asked about the question, like, asking about their uh kind of, hey, uh like, what’s your answer about this? Like, what, how should I answer this? Right. So you have to take the time to train your agent and it’s not easy that that’s the, that’s the part we have been struggling with like just training agents and uh but we are getting close and we are really excited about this. And uh so,
Aytekin Tank
00:27:22 – 00:27:54
And, you know, I think the technology is there, like, just, just like there’s just so many things you can do and I feel like the A I is gonna turn everyone into managers, right? Right now, like everyone, like most of the employees that work in your company, most of them, you know, people who work are individual contributors, right? Like there’s like individual contributors, then you have like managers and you have like, you know, uh meet managers and you have VPs, right?
Aytekin Tank
00:27:54 – 00:28:47
But in the future, everyone is going to become a manager because as an individual contributor, but you have very limited time, you don’t have meaningful knowledge. But what if you could, you could have all these A I agents working for you doing the job for you, right? What would happen is that instead of doing something yourself, you just hand over the task to an A I agent that accomplishes the task for you and then you actually do something else. And basically you start like thinking like a manager as opposed to thinking like a individual contributor, like you are becoming this person who is actually like kind of uh telling what to do to these A I agents so that you can actually kind of manage them, like as a manager, like what kind like
Aytekin Tank
00:28:47 – 00:29:39
in, in the real world, what kind of duties managers have? Like you have to train your, you need to train your uh you know, uh your teammates, like your uh subordinates, you need to uh uh kind of provide them 1 to 1 feedback, right? Uh You, you have to, you need to like, you know, help them on their job, maybe you need to set metrics to them, like just uh try to get this level like you do all these things, right? But instead of these individual contributors, what if you could actually, you know, get your uh get A I agents to do them and you are basically providing feedback to them, providing instructions to them. And I feel like the future of work is about how everyone is so productive. We are all producing so much
Aytekin Tank
00:29:40 – 00:30:29
and people are afraid like I am gonna take over our jobs. But it didn’t happen in the past. Like whenever we had this automation, whenever we had like new technology taking over jobs, like people who are driving these like, you know, horse carriages, uh you know, they stopped doing that but they, they start doing other things, right? Because once we become more productive, we create so much more value that uh we can actually work on higher value tasks. And I’m pretty sure that everyone will have jobs, everyone will have much better jobs. Like instead of being this very boring, repetitive task, people are going to be doing this uh kind of more creative kind of working with the A I, you know, A I can also do creativity but you, someone has to manage them, right? Someone has to
Aytekin Tank
00:30:30 – 00:31:01
uh kind of take them uh kind of organize them and the probably the, you know, companies are gonna become like uh much more nimble, they’re gonna become smaller, but there’s going to be much, you know, bigger number of companies who are specialized in different kinds of things. And uh I see Bright Fisher with the A I uh and uh and, and we, we are going to have much more fun as opposed to doing these real boring tasks.
Jeff Bullas
00:31:02 – 00:31:09
So, actually what you talk about is taking A r, removes the mundane and allows us to do the important things.
Aytekin Tank
00:31:10 – 00:31:36
Exactly. I mean, if you think about it, filling out a form is boring. Uh, but I mean, it’s boring but you have to do it. Right. It’s part of, uh, like you’re applying for something you’re registered for something you have to do it. Right. But it’s not just about being bored, but it doesn’t also provide you with any information. Like it’s, it doesn’t provide you, it doesn’t answer your questions. Um So
Aytekin Tank
00:31:37 – 00:32:03
if you can actually uh talk to someone, it’s just much more simpler. Uh It’s just you can ask your questions, maybe you don’t need to fill that form, maybe you need to fill out another form. Uh and then you’re wasting time. But if you can converse with someone, that uh A I agent can provide you, so it’s kind of replacing the person, like just like, you know, replicating the person who, who can answer those questions.
Aytekin Tank
00:32:03 – 00:32:44
And uh this like increases so much increases productivity so much, but it’s very challenging. It’s not easy. Uh You know, there are also demos on the web, like you can see these demos about like A I sales agents, like talking to someone on the phone, but most of them are scripted because it’s just uh it’s, it’s not that easy. It’s very difficult and we are actually seeing those challenges. But the technology is advancing. And also even if people are understanding, like we, we actually watch these conversations, we watch the chat, we, we read these uh like, you know, chat conversations between people and the form agents.
Aytekin Tank
00:32:45 – 00:33:18
And we watch the, you know, audio conversations. And what we see is that people are actually understanding, they know that they are talking to an A I agent. And if the A I agent gives them a wrong answer, they are not like they’re not getting angry, they understand that they are talking to a machine and they explain it better and they uh you know, correct the A I agent and then they, they continue and they, and they don’t have to wait, they don’t have to email someone to get an answer. They can get their answers there right there and now and that makes a big difference.
Jeff Bullas
00:33:18 – 00:34:18
Yeah. So yeah, for me, I go to a website, I wanna buy something and we have this already happening like you put in your name and then it says, do you want to autofill this form? Which could be things like, ok, my credit card details except for the CV C. It could be my address. It could be so yep, because filling in forms is actually boring as bat shit, right? Like it’s something we love to hate. Right. Exactly. So what are the, what are the biggest industries that you solve that problem for? In other words, filling in forms, creating forms is one thing you’re giving them the form to use. How do you, so you’re talking about A I helping them automatically fill the form?
Aytekin Tank
00:34:20 – 00:34:45
Yeah, that’s exactly what’s happening. Um So, um so what we found was that if you start asking questions directly, uh that’s not, that may not be a good approach. Uh That’s no different than like uh you know, fill in a boring uh like form. But if, if you start with the conversation and then answer the answer the questions of the person and then once they are ready,
Aytekin Tank
00:34:45 – 00:35:12
then OK, I can, you know, once we, once the agent says, OK, can I take some information? And then they, the agent starts like, you know, asking those questions on the form. Uh obviously on the chat, it’s no different than filling out a form. But in many, many ways, it’s sometimes easier as well. Like just uh kind of, you can actually, uh you know, say things in a sentence, say, you know, if you, for example, if you,
Aytekin Tank
00:35:12 – 00:35:50
if you need to state a date, you can just say, you know, quickly, you know, July 15 or something. And then they will just, uh you know, it will turn, the A I agent will turn and then we also ask, ask the person to review the form they are about to submit. Uh They also have because if, if the A I agent misunderstood something they can actually review and make sure that there is no uh incorrect information on the form. Uh Yeah, it’s exactly like that, you still have the form submission, but it’s much easier and the person who is filling out the form gets their questions answered. And um
Aytekin Tank
00:35:50 – 00:36:21
and just, uh it’s, it’s much better and if in the middle of the forum, if they have a question, like if they have a question about the specific question, uh and they, you know, the A I agent can also answer those questions. So that actually makes a bigger difference. Um We, you know, we have been doing this for, for at least six months, we have been doing this uh better testing with out of uh users. Uh We don’t, I don’t think we have any statistical significance uh data on that. But
Aytekin Tank
00:36:22 – 00:36:50
uh what, what I feel like happening is that it’s actually increasing the conversion rates as well on the forms. Uh Like people are completing their forms more often because or maybe if they, maybe if they don’t need to fill out that form, maybe they are, if they are filling out the wrong form and if the agent likes just redirecting something to the right form, maybe the conversion rate is uh lowering. But, you know, it’s, it’s actually the real conversion rate is increasing and that’s what matters.
Jeff Bullas
00:36:51 – 00:36:55
So what’s the future? So the future view is actually leaning more to A I.
Aytekin Tank
00:36:58 – 00:37:38
Um definitely the feature is about the A I and um I always believe that um kind of when you are building a product, uh you have to uh kind of go slowly get feedback from users, like just uh as opposed to like, just building it at once and then uh like then move on to another product or something like that. So when we release that AIm towards the end of this year, uh that’s just going to be the beginning and just gonna, we are going to see how things are going, we are going to receive a lot of feedback
Aytekin Tank
00:37:38 – 00:38:17
and I made several mistakes. So we are gonna have some angry customers like saying, hey, my A I is saying things like this like just, it happens like there’s just no way around it like uh they are not real uh you know, they, they are not, they, they can make mistakes, but I think the technology is improving every day. Uh So, and we are actually, you know, that’s why we are, we have taken so long to release this and uh but we have to keep working on this for many years to be able to really create this great product. But I think the idea is um I see our job as automation.
Aytekin Tank
00:38:17 – 00:38:48
Uh when I started job form, I thought that I was just like just helping people create forms. But over the years, what I discovered was people are actually the forms are, people are not just filling out forms just to fill out forms. There is something going on like there’s some operation, there is a process that needs to be completed. There’s a, you know, workflow that needs to be completed. And we are basically helping with that. What we are really lucky about is usually forms are like the first step
Aytekin Tank
00:38:48 – 00:39:17
in that process. And that process, that workflow may involve like 10 or 20 different steps. And uh, what we started doing is like we are not going to just stop in the first step, we are going to help people with the next steps as well. Like that’s why we created all these additional products. Like, you know, we can like we have a document generation product, like we can take all the data from these forms and create these PDF files. We have a signature product. So when, when you fill out a form,
Aytekin Tank
00:39:18 – 00:40:04
uh when you, when you need to sign a document uh at the end of this workflow, like we also help with that, we have this approval workflow solution where you can actually, you know, get approvals from this form, submission and then maybe send the next form, maybe do something else, maybe generate a new email. So, we are basically helping people automate their processes, their workflows. And um and I think the same thing applies to A I as well. Like we are starting with turning our forms into A I agents. But in time that’s gonna probably help uh like we are gonna probably start automating more and more things with A I, helping people automate things with A I. So that’s what we see. Like uh also A I uh
Aytekin Tank
00:40:04 – 00:40:53
uh companies, they are actually releasing all these technologies but they are not actually seeing any like real World uh kind of real world value. There’s like many, many times they cannot see the real world value uh because like they are just, they are, they are kind of away from the customers. They are kind of, they are thinking about the technology and they, they are really doing great jobs like they’re creating all these great technologies. But in our case, it’s the reverse. Like we are actually first, we are not focused on the technology, we are focused on providing real world solutions to existing customers. And if you can provide solutions to our existing customers, then we are creating these A I products that can actually help other people as well. Uh We can actually grow our business as well.
Aytekin Tank
00:40:53 – 00:41:06
Uh And then we are guided by our existing customers which actually allows us to go more slowly but build real world solutions to real world problems.
Jeff Bullas
00:41:07 – 00:41:27
So talking about real world problems and real solutions. So what are some of the biggest industries that you’re solving those problems for? What’s your target market that works best for you? And what are the industries that are going? I need help with forms.
Aytekin Tank
00:41:29 – 00:42:09
Uh top three in the industries for us is um basically um uh education, health care and nonprofits because these industries have to deal with auto people like they have in education, you have these students, uh teachers, parents, you know, all kinds of employees uh and uh in health care, like you have patients, doctors, like just like so much communication going on. And because we are hipaa compliant and uh because we uh we are kind of uh we have the secure versions of child that uh healthcare is very big as well for us um
Aytekin Tank
00:42:10 – 00:42:55
and nonprofit as well. And uh and, and these industries involve, they are not just people filling out the forms, they are not just filling out the forms, they are, people also have a lot of questions. So this just from A I solution matches their problems so well, like this, this is such a great product for them. And we see that when uh and someone from these industries are actually using just from A I just, it’s so useful for them, but like all these, all these beta testers that we see, uh just makes it so much easier for them. And uh so, you know, for example, let’s say a nonprofit example, American Heart Association uses JA
Aytekin Tank
00:42:56 – 00:43:41
and like when you need to do like these educational classes and they, when they take these uh people like register for these classes, right? Uh Just from a, I can help people answer questions about all these like uh different kinds of uh courses and then it can ask questions, find out more and, and then fill out this, you know, find out about all the dates available and then sign up for the classes. Uh that would be a real world example. And uh in the universities um like, you know, University of Michigan, for example, uses ja form. Um and you know, many universities use jobs so that people can apply for, you know, all these different kinds of scholarships they can apply for.
Aytekin Tank
00:43:42 – 00:44:04
Uh they can make requests uh register for classes uh and all these different kinds of things and all these examples uh involve so much like communication, it’s not just uh data collection or just entering some data on a phone, but it’s two way communication is involved and a I can actually provide that uh help with that communication.
Jeff Bullas
00:44:05 – 00:44:13
So industries that need to provide compliance is that a big deal for you guys?
Aytekin Tank
00:44:14 – 00:44:16
Um industries that
Jeff Bullas
00:44:16 – 00:44:22
need to comply. In other words, a lot of compliance. So is that is that you
Aytekin Tank
00:44:22 – 00:45:22
I find these are really big. Um because um when you are dealing with data, uh it’s just like the world has changed like uh when we started just 18 years ago, people were less sensitive about privacy and compliances. But once everyone actually became, uh, you know, started using online and cloud products, like privacy and, and compliances became very important. And, uh, you know, we have all these uh compliances like S two compliance, uh hi a compliance, you know, uh and like, and this compliance is really important for our customers because they cannot use our product in that way. And the same thing applies to each other for uh A I. Uh So we cannot use uh C GP T, for example, because uh what happens with C GP T is you are actually sending data to open A I.
Aytekin Tank
00:45:22 – 00:46:20
Um And we have to use our own local A I uh local A I kind of large language model models. And luckily they are like open source uh lamps that allow you to kind of host your own. Uh I and uh we use many of them, like we actually uh kind of like keep it flexible using all these different uh different um you know, S like the lama and um others and then just comparing them to each other, seeing which one performs better. And uh and then like just using the ones that even like during a conversation, we might actually use multiple uh kinds of LL MS like just one type of uh for example, a question might be answered by, answered by a different kind of LLM.
Aytekin Tank
00:46:20 – 00:47:07
Uh So we can actually arrange that in the back end uh in our servers that use a different model for different kinds of questions. So that’s something we discovered along the way uh that we could actually do. Uh But it’s great that uh that there is like, you, you don’t have to kind of, you can, you can still have uh privacy and compliance using A I, you just need to be uh just need to like, be careful about it and uh not use like, you know, che CPT open A I kind of uh services that actually requires you to send the data to, to a third party uh which our customer wouldn’t like because uh we don’t share data with third parties.
Jeff Bullas
00:47:08 – 00:47:29
Yeah, it’s actually a big question. How can you actually can, the other part of that is how can you actually protect your IP that chat GPT is not stealing from you and revealing to everyone else when they are questioning. So that’s actually for me, I’m going, that’s really fascinating in that
Jeff Bullas
00:47:31 – 00:47:52
cannot try my A I A without revealing it to the general A I which is actually open because people can just go and search what are these guys doing? What’s, what’s job form doing? And if you’re giving your data to them, that could become an issue, isn’t it?
Aytekin Tank
00:47:52 – 00:48:31
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, uh it’s just uh you don’t know what’s gonna happen in the future. And uh once you send that data to, to a third party and we know that all these like uh all these uh LL MS they actually got here by kind of like scraping data using, you know, all these data all over the world, like kind of even the uh generated artwork. You see that it’s kind of like there’s all this discussion about copyright because they look like because they are not really stealing data, but they are using someone’s copyrighted method
Aytekin Tank
00:48:31 – 00:49:06
to train their A I. And what’s happening is that this A I can just uh say corer data and if open A I get your like your company’s information and it uses it somehow as the training materials, your company’s information can show up somewhere else. I think they say that we don’t do that like whatever information you set to che PT, they are not kind of reusing that data like uh I mean that you can, you can never be sure. Yeah, I’m
Jeff Bullas
00:49:06 – 00:49:08
just go bullshit on that frankly. Right off the bat.
Aytekin Tank
00:49:08 – 00:49:09
Yeah.
Jeff Bullas
00:49:09 – 00:49:39
Yeah. So Akan um I’m gonna ask you one last question to wrap this up. Uh It’s been a fascinating conversation and I think what you’re doing is you’re trying to make it easy for people to create forms. Um A I take it to another level, in other words, remove the mundane and allow them to make better decisions. So if he had all the money in the world
Jeff Bullas
00:49:41 – 00:49:53
and you weren’t paid for it. What would you do every day? What drives it? What makes him happy
Aytekin Tank
00:49:54 – 00:50:27
essentially. Um, at this point, uh, I’m, I’m actually, I could retire today. Like, I don’t actually need to work another day and, uh, you know, I don’t actually, I, I’m actually in that position and I continue to lead my company, uh, because I really care about, uh, what we are doing and like, I enjoy that I can also start a new business as well. Like, uh why don’t I just start a new business, new products as opposed to continuing what I’m doing?
Aytekin Tank
00:50:28 – 00:51:09
Uh, because like, I can make a bigger impact by just improving, like there’s only like 25 million people using a job for and everything I do kind of can, can affect, can have an impact on them as opposed to starting a new company. And we’re always building new products that work for me as well. Like just being in new products that I kind of satisfied with that kind of entrepreneurship, uh like the spirit in my sub, but just building jobs from A I is like building a new product, but I’m still impacting our existing user. I’m creating a bigger impact. So I still enjoy this and,
Aytekin Tank
00:51:09 – 00:51:41
and the other thing is like, uh you know, um I have kids, I have three kids and my youngest is like 1.5. So this kind of means I have to be in a, like a big city of, and I cannot just, and my, the other, the other kids are in school, uh, I can just travel all the time. Like, just that kind of lifestyle is over, like, like, like, uh, like, uh, 12 years ago. My, my wife and I just traveled to Europe, traveled to Europe for three months and I enjoyed that,
Aytekin Tank
00:51:41 – 00:52:19
uh, a lot. Uh, so, you know, I did some traveling when I was younger but, uh, I, I have to be, I have to be stable in, I have to live in a big city. Make sure that my kids go to a good school and they get a good education and this means that I cannot just travel all the time. Like, it doesn’t make sense for me to have this, you know, this, uh, different kind of lifestyle. So, you know, if I’m going to be living in a single city, if I’m going to have this, uh, you know, life, that means that kind of like one of the things I really enjoy is, uh,
Aytekin Tank
00:52:20 – 00:53:13
Actually, I also enjoy nature and I own like 6000 trees in Turkey. And kind of my, my parents hometown is like near the sea and, and, uh, olive, olive trees and, and I enjoy, like picking olives every year and, uh, take my kids, we go together and, uh, pick olives and we spend time, uh, in, in the nature and, uh, in the mountains and in, in, in olive orchards. Uh, but I couldn’t do that full time. Uh, maybe once my, you know, kids are going to take a long time because I have a 1.5 year old, uh, once, you know, I sent her to college then maybe I can just, you know, become a full time farmer. But until then, you know, I’m gonna continue doing this and I enjoy it. So uh it’s, it’s, it’s all good. Yeah.
Jeff Bullas
00:53:14 – 00:54:06
Well, continue adding value to the world, changing the world. Uh One subscriber at a time and you’ve got 25 million of those, which is really awesome. So I take and thank you very much for sharing your insights and um yeah, I’ve been, I’ve heard of your journey a long time ago and you’re still here and i’m 25 million subscribers is pretty awesome. So, and you remove the mundane for us, which is actually really awesome. I hate filling in forms for us. Um So thank you um for making my life easier and uh look forward to catching up with you and well, I might be Nable in a couple of months or a month. So, um but you’re in Ankara, which is a little bit further away. So
Aytekin Tank
00:54:07 – 00:54:17
ping me when you are in Turkey and then hopefully we can, you know, meet up and uh I really enjoyed our conversation and, uh, thank you for having me on your show.
Jeff Bullas
00:54:18 – 00:54:20
Thank you. It, and it’s been an absolute pleasure.
Aytekin Tank
00:54:21 – 00:54:22
It was a pleasure.