Projjal Ghatak is the visionary founder and CEO of OnLoop, is at the forefront of revolutionizing team assessment and development. With an impressive background that includes leadership roles at Uber and Accenture, Projjal has established himself as a seasoned executive in strategy and operations. Armed with an MBA from Stanford, he has chosen Singapore as the base for his entrepreneurial endeavors.
As the CEO of OnLoop, Projjal leads a diverse and global team, spearheading the transformation of the future of work through the company’s innovative approach. With his extensive experience and strategic vision, Projjal is reshaping the industry by leveraging cutting-edge technologies and empowering teams to reach their fullest potential. Under his guidance, OnLoop continues to disrupt traditional paradigms and deliver game-changing solutions in team assessment and development.
What you will learn
- How OnLoop is transforming team assessment and development with AI.
- The role GPT-3 played in shaping OnLoop’s approach to performance reviews.
- Why clear goal-setting is crucial for driving productivity in organizations.
- The importance of managing energy and motivation in the workplace.
- How modern managers can balance human empathy with technology to lead effectively.
Transcript
Jeff Bullas
00:00:03 – 00:00:46
Hi, everyone and welcome to the Jeff Bullas Show! Today with me is Projjal Ghatak. Now, I’m gonna call him JJ because that’s two letters in his first name. And he’s a visionary founder and CEO of On Loop.
He is at the forefront of revolutionizing team assessment and development. With an impressive background that includes leadership roles at Uber and Accenture, Projjal has established himself as a seasoned executive in strategy and operations. Armed with an MBA from Stanford, he has chosen Singapore as the base for his entrepreneurial endeavors.
Jeff Bullas
00:00:47 – 00:01:22
As the CEO of OnLoop, Projjal leads a diverse and global team, spearheading the transformation of the future of work through the company’s innovative approach. With his extensive experience and strategic vision, Projjal is reshaping the industry by leveraging cutting-edge technologies and empowering teams to reach their fullest potential. Under his guidance, OnLoop continues to disrupt traditional paradigms and deliver game-changing solutions in team assessment and development.
Welcome to the show. It’s a pleasure to have you here.
Projjal Ghatak
00:01:23 – 00:01:24
Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for having me.
Jeff Bullas
00:01:25 – 00:02:08
So, in our little prelude, before we hit the record button here, we were talking about things that we sort of instantly went into the intersection of the machine and humans. And so what are you curious about about A I and how to, and the second question, um how do you start to get curious and intrigued and passionate about A I because obviously there’s a big driver behind what you’re doing to actually create an app that actually amplifies humanity using A I. So where did this all start? Am I curious? I’m, I’m intrigued.
Projjal Ghatak
00:02:09 – 00:03:02
Yeah. So, um you know, you can’t really time when you start your company, but there are certain seismic shifts in technology that happen that propel you forward. And so for us, um that first happened in August of 2020 when GPT three was released. Um And, and I had a few friends from Stanford who had got their hands on the tech and were completely blown away by it. Um And so, uh we found it on loop at about the same time. Um And, and one of the core use cases uh that we started looking at was how feedback was done in organizations. Uh and also how performance reviews were written and how the performance review writing process was this incredibly hated mundane activity that we went through.
Projjal Ghatak
00:03:03 – 00:03:49
And so when we looked at the technology behind GP T three, the first sort of pipe dream that we had was, hey, you know, what if, what if we could take people’s feedback uh to the course of the year and sort of automate how performance reviews are written. Um And, and that’s how it all started for us. Um I actually applied for the private beta of GP T three and got rejected in 2020 before we had, before we had raised any money and then we raised some money. I applied again and we got in and in February of 2021 when we got into the private beta, I basically told the team, we’re pausing everything else in our road map and focusing purely on this tech
Projjal Ghatak
00:03:49 – 00:04:23
and, and, and, and the reason why the technology was so powerful because it gave us a brand new way to solve age old problems. Um I think one of the issues that companies have today is that they are nervous about this technology and, and, and they keep looking for ways in which they can use the tech. But what I tell CEOS and leaders is that go look at your top 10 problems and see if there is a new way to solve them with JW. I, there’s no point force fitting it where it doesn’t need to fit.
Projjal Ghatak
00:04:23 – 00:05:03
Uh But if you look around and look at problems that you haven’t been able to solve before, it is likely that this technology now gives you brand new ways to solve it. So, I see it very much as a tool kit and a toolkit to solve problems the way the internet has been, the PC has been, the mobile phone has been. Um I think the, I think the biggest difference is that, um, to a lot of people, this feels like a very likely replacement for a lot of people’s day jobs today, um, was, versus sort of the internet and the mobile phone felt like more aids to do their day jobs today. And, and, and I think it’s sort of
Projjal Ghatak
00:05:03 – 00:05:26
puts the very existence of the knowledge worker into question around, uh, you know, when a lot of your job is coordinating and task management and project management, um, whether all of those things are now done better by agents at a pace that is more consistent and, and sort of faster than most of human knowledge workers.
Jeff Bullas
00:05:27 – 00:06:09
Yeah, it’s interesting that, uh, you mentioned that a lot of CEO S or man, senior managers go, they’re, they’re, they’re afraid of it and I think, um, they’re going, am I gonna lose my job? And I think, you know, the best quotes I’ve heard for a while is you won’t lose your job to a I, you’ll lose your job to a person who uses A I. And the reality is about this too is that humans aren’t good at vast change. And what we’ve seen in the past we still like, it’s even hard to imagine that Chat G BT was released to the general public. At the end of 2022 we haven’t reached the end of 2024 yet.
Jeff Bullas
00:06:09 – 00:06:36
And we are seeing like approaching $1 trillion going into data centers, training large language models and chatting G BT. So the pace of change is scary for many of us. So uh what do you think about that in terms of how do you comfort managers with the pace of change? Um I’d be interested in how you approach that.
Projjal Ghatak
00:06:36 – 00:07:29
Yeah. And actually, you know, senior leaders and organizations are less worried about the tech, they’re more worried about being left behind and they’re, and they’re nervous around how do they take full advantage of this tech? Um I think there’s a lot of sort of, you know, let’s call it rank and file workers who are somewhat worried, but I think that has dissipated to some extent. Um because today 75% of all knowledge workers have used, applied A I at work in some shape or form. Um And, and because the technology in, in the format it presents itself which is conversational A I and the ease of its use, it sort of has made most people empowered to be able to use it to their benefit. Um because it doesn’t, it doesn’t feel um sort of difficult to access. So the ease of access to the
Projjal Ghatak
00:07:29 – 00:08:12
uh has made more people believe. Oh I can, I can use this um and I can use this uh to get better. Um And I think companies around the world are scrambling to be like, oh my God, what are all the use cases so that I don’t get left behind? Um But, but the, but the fear I think comes from, look, will these things get smarter than us humans and will they invent their own language? Um Will they sort of find a way to never get switched off? Um I think those are sort of bigger questions um that, you know, I think certain people worry about. Um And, and I, and I, and I think that as a human race, I think we’ve continued to
Projjal Ghatak
00:08:13 – 00:08:48
innovate through the centuries and, and, and that sort of innovation curve uh only gets more exponential. Um And, and, you know, I, I frankly find myself incredibly excited to be alive at this time. And in fact, I personally sometimes have some FOMO whether I’m working on the right things to take advantage of the tech because you don’t get these opportunities easily. And, and part of why, uh you know, I see myself both as an operator and an investor is because the number of things that excite me around this tech are too many for
Projjal Ghatak
00:08:48 – 00:09:06
me myself to work on. And so I said, so that’s if I can, if I can sort of participate in some ways and other people are also working on it. Um I think that’s the only way I get access to more of it because the breadth of change is humongous.
Jeff Bullas
00:09:07 – 00:09:52
Yeah. I think you made a really important point there is that it’s not so much about change as a series. So that’s what we’d say would be overwhelming. There are so many things that A I chat with GP D can do. And then we’ve got apps coming on the market and then we’re, and you’re, you know, you’re building an app, right? So I’m developing it and, and growing it. Uh Yeah. And, and for both, for me too, I’m just going, wow, I can do all of this. Where do I start? Uh That’s actually maybe the most important question. I think one thing you mentioned uh just a minute or two ago was just look at your top 10 problems and how can I use chat G BT or apps or A I to help me solve those or make it easier for me? So
Jeff Bullas
00:09:52 – 00:10:12
Let me go to the next question, which is where they should start in terms of using tools like which tool solves my biggest problem? Or can I develop a tool that solves my biggest problem or problems. Where do you think people should start with A I and CHAT G BT in an organization, whether you’re a small or large?
Projjal Ghatak
00:10:13 – 00:10:14
Yeah.
Jeff Bullas
00:10:14 – 00:10:15
So,
Projjal Ghatak
00:10:15 – 00:11:04
um you know, I, I think this is again, not dissimilar to other technologies, right? So we’ve obviously seen the SAS revolution uh in technology in the last 10 years or so where um there’s, there’s been a tool invented to do everything in the workplace. And now the difference with those tools is that they are largely form filling exercises and they are static. And so what you’re basically going to see is that every SAS category will get reinvented with A I embedded. So the, so the, so the CRM system we use today, uh which is largely a dumb CRM system will become a much smarter CRM system tomorrow. Um Our, our email systems that um sort of have some level of
Projjal Ghatak
00:11:04 – 00:11:53
autocomplete will become much smarter at responding back to things. So, it’s not so much that you will see sort of brand new workflows get created. But a lot of the workflows today that we’re solving either through manual work or through some type of S A tool will sort of level change itself in terms of the powers and capabilities that it has. And which is why it’s interesting that with A I, um the larger companies have a bit of an advantage because if you have more data that benefits you. So, a company like meta um sort of stands to win this next wave uh versus a brand new start up because you already have such a big leg up. Um But yeah, I think, you know,
Projjal Ghatak
00:11:54 – 00:12:27
I think it to a point to prevent the overwhelm if you start thinking about business problems and customer problems and, and, you know, there’s been a lot of blow up over the weekend about this notion of founder mode versus manager mode um out of Silicon Valley. And we can, we can talk about that if that is, if that is interesting. Um But organizations suffer from deep coordination. Um And a lot of sort of busy work that people do. Uh And we think that those use cases are so right uh for using
Projjal Ghatak
00:12:27 – 00:13:14
generative A I have to sort of take people’s everyday conversations and then scale them through better generation of reports, better generation of follow ups, better generation of, of various sort of administrative activities that most people do. And in organizations today, managers spend 70% of their time on admin tasks that can be automated. Um And so the productive enhancements of organizations can see if they really take this seriously is exponential and, and, and then at least in my lifetime, I’ve never quite seen that in the same way for things that are more knowledge, worker type jobs.
Jeff Bullas
00:13:15 – 00:13:36
Yeah, I, I think the pace of change is what blows me away and the user uptake of Chat G BT in just I think it was eight weeks, went to a, 100 million years. It’s only been exceeded by threads but threads already had a base that was just thrown outside. I don’t think using threads as an, as an example is really the best but 100 million users
Jeff Bullas
00:13:36 – 00:14:06
out of a total in just eight weeks, once Chat GPC was open to the world and the general use. And I think the thing you made a point of too is that it made it easy to use. In other words, the technology was given a human interface and a friendly face in that it’s just like a search engine which we all know about. It’s just a box type in a question. So and I think reflecting on that and looking at technology over time, this is where we go looking for answers for the future
Jeff Bullas
00:14:06 – 00:14:57
By looking back into the past adoption and change and evolution of the human and the tools we develop is that, you know, for example, during the 19 eighties, we had the mouse and the windows emerge and the PC was given a friendly face adoption. Then in the 19 nineties, we had the browsers were given a friendly face instead of uh you know, we had Netscape browsers show up. I reckon, wow, I can use this. Um And then social media has made it easy to use. But these all happened because of the intersection of technology as well in that. So that’s, that’s what I find really interesting is that they gave chat, they gave a I a user friendly interface and that’s what it,
Projjal Ghatak
00:14:58 – 00:15:45
yeah, and, and actually I worry about the future of mobile apps because a whatsapp like interface where you can go back and forth and communicate with somebody is much more free flowing than a form filling exercise. So every website on the planet via travel or hotels or buying clothes or ecommerce is in forms and boxes and once that becomes conversational, um that just changes our basic experience of the internet. Um And I and I, and I think that will happen in different use cases in different ways. Um I think, I think search is one where search tends to be more an iterative
Projjal Ghatak
00:15:45 – 00:16:34
process like when you search for something you want to go deeper. And that’s why I think as a use case, uh people see it getting disrupted conversationally very, very quickly. Uh But I’m surprised that travel websites and flight booking websites are still formed worthy of saying look, I want to go from SF to Sydney in the week of September 18th um at the fastest possible pace with a budget of our dollars. And that’s, that’s how, that’s the way we should search for flights and hotels and things like that. Um And, and that’s why whatsapp as an asset is probably one of the most under leveraged business assets in the history of man, uh where, where meta has so much potential of what it can do with the fact that the whole world’s on whatsapp. Um And, and today whatsapps
Projjal Ghatak
00:16:34 – 00:17:06
and it’s very infancy and it’s used in commerce and in businesses. But even we have started looking at whatsapp Interfaces for our product because it’s on everybody’s phones, uh everybody’s checking it 15 times a day. And so in terms of getting people to input things uh multiple times a day, it’s actually much more visual than your own mobile. And so, and so the bar for why you need your own mobile versus an app just sits within whatsapp.
Jeff Bullas
00:17:06 – 00:17:06
Yeah,
Projjal Ghatak
00:17:06 – 00:17:08
that bar will also be further,
Jeff Bullas
00:17:08 – 00:18:02
right? You raise many fascinating points there. And uh for me to uh I, I think the challenge for all of us uh moving forward and evolving as humans is we, the thing that we have trouble with as humans is unlearning because the only way you can really evolve is to leave some of your old habits behind and they’re baked in. So this is why people that are a bit older have trouble using social media or search engines or even ATM S whereas young people live on their phone, breathe their phone, in fact, can’t leave it alone. I think they touch their phones more often than their lovers. But that’s another story that the reality is um for me, is that
Jeff Bullas
00:18:04 – 00:18:28
a and for un learning and unlearning for, I’ve been using search engines now since mid 1995 when the Netscape browser showed up, right? And then Google came on and it was, I think the fifth or sixth man you know, a search engine to show up. So the Netscape didn’t win the race. Google right now. This is, and that’s another topic. But what’s interesting now, I do a lot of reading. So I sit down and I
Jeff Bullas
00:18:28 – 00:19:09
read and I take notes and I reflect and um then they’re put under my phone and then I can send it to myself and then I journal and then I turn into blog person, media and ideas for the team just trying to make sure I don’t distract them from what they should be doing by giving them too many ideas because so I’m actually using Chat GT in the morning now instead of doing a Google search, I’m going uh what is, what are some ideas around this? Give me some takeaways? Uh, summarize a book in 1000 words that I’ve just read. Uh, what are some Japanese words for beauty? OK. So out of this, my use of search is actually dropping. I’ve noticed that
Jeff Bullas
00:19:09 – 00:19:29
On the other hand, I’m also using search to validate hallucination on A I and Chat GP too because I’m a little bit doubtful about some of the answers because Chat GP wants to keep me happy. Right. I’m going, I’m going to give you an answer even if I made some shit up
Projjal Ghatak
00:19:29 – 00:19:31
like humans do.
Jeff Bullas
00:19:32 – 00:19:35
Yeah. Well, isn’t that part of the fun? Right. You got to
Projjal Ghatak
00:19:37 – 00:19:45
correct. Exactly. So, I don’t, I don’t know if J GP hallucinates more than the average human. So that’s the thing we hold technology at different bars than we do.
Jeff Bullas
00:19:46 – 00:20:13
That’s right. Yeah, I totally agree. Like, um, why let it, you know why let truth get in the way of a good story because that’s what we’ve done around fires for, for millennia and in fact, tens of thousands of years and guess what’s not, what’s not bad about actually dealing up a little bullshit around a dinner table just to get people smiling or distract them and then revealing the truth later. Maybe, maybe that’s what chat she would say. Oh, sorry, I was just trying to.
Jeff Bullas
00:20:15 – 00:21:07
OK. So the other thing I’m curious about and your thoughts uh because I grew up in a world where I hardly get algorithms when social media started back in the, you know, early two thousands. But yeah, back in 2008 9 when I got started my, you know, digital media business, the blog and then podcast later. Um What’s interesting for me is that it was the wild West back then of social media and also search and we, the challenge I think we have as humans is the algorithms run the show we are in the middle of the, it’s actually humans versus the machine in terms of battling the algorithms that serve up on social media, hate drama and entertainment, which is creating all sorts of problems. So um I’m not gonna go there, but I’m intrigued. So with the intersection of a smartphone and
Jeff Bullas
00:21:08 – 00:21:25
social media, we became creators everywhere and anywhere at any time and we also became addicted to our phones. Do you think there’s a potential problem with us being addicted to A I just like we are with social media.
Projjal Ghatak
00:21:26 – 00:22:21
So, so, so this is, this is a, it’s a very interesting topic and, and for me, this topic has become even more poignant because I now have a six month old son. Uh and when you have Children, you, you somehow think about the future a lot more because, and also to think about sort of what, what kind of future you want to help create for your Children. Um I, I, 11 that I heard recently is that the next generation after millennials is the most negative generation recorded in mankind? And that’s because they consume all their news on tiktok. And, and when you get your news from sources that are incentivized to be sensational. Um and, and I, and sensationally negative because that, that gets even more views, you just have a warped view of the world.
Projjal Ghatak
00:22:22 – 00:23:17
And, and I think this is where parents and people who are older can play a big role in what you introduce to people. And I think there is generally in the world a deep lack of thoughtfulness around what content you consume from what platform. And so I still read The Financial Times in print every morning and that is my new source. And that’s because I believe that if someone’s putting something in print, they have a lesser incentive to make it click bait because you can’t click on it. And, if I’m trying to understand what’s going on in the world, I choose sources that are likely going to give me a more fact based approach. Um And when I think about content for my Children, even at the age of six months, we refuse to have electronic addictive nursery rhymes at home
Projjal Ghatak
00:23:17 – 00:24:25
and we ensure things are more acoustic and less addictive because addiction now starts at infancy with the content that gets created. Right? And so, and so the problem is not addictive content. It’s bad parenting. Mhm. And, and, and we don’t talk about that as an issue because cocaine has existed for decades. Right? There have been bad addictive substances in circulation forever. Now that doesn’t mean that’s a huge problem. Now, with technology, we may not have been able to really understand the ramifications, regulate it, understand sort of the positive and negative impacts. And in countries like Singapore, the government is already starting to think about limiting screen time for Children because we’re starting to understand that that is a huge social problem that’s in the making. Hm. And so, yes, addiction is absolutely a problem.
Projjal Ghatak
00:24:25 – 00:25:13
And addiction to content is absolutely a problem. And as I generate more content, its ability to create even more addictive content will increase. But I, but I think we should stop thinking about that as the problem versus sort of how discerning we are as human beings and what choices we make around technology in the same way that I’m not drinking at 9 a.m. in the morning. I have wine bottles at home. Yeah. Right. And so, and you, and you’re making a conscious choice to not sort of, you know, involve yourself in the substance may be productive. But I think the same applies to tech and the same applies to content on the internet.
Jeff Bullas
00:25:14 – 00:25:30
Yeah, I totally agree with you. I’ve been in social media, I was known as a social media influencer um, before influencers were called influencers back in 2011 12, I got invited to speak around the world on social media in 2011 12.
Jeff Bullas
00:25:32 – 00:26:24
And it’s changed my life in a very good way. Absolutely. And it’s given me distribution and it’s made me be able to bypass the media moguls gatekeeping. It excited me, but I had a bit of an aha moment in that I went to the World Youth Forum in about 2019 as a guest of um uh the Egyptian government and the World Youth Forum. And we had a round table where we had 12 guests hosted by the Egyptian president and he was moderating and we had six people talking about the pros of social media and the other talking about the negatives of social media. And of course, I was on the pros, we had three minutes to speak for me. That was a watershed moment in that I started to see the negative aspect of social media with clearer eyes.
Jeff Bullas
00:26:25 – 00:27:04
So despite being a social media influencer, you know, I no longer would call that myself now. Um But I hardly ever go into my social media feed and scroll. Hardly ever. I do not get my news from social media and that scares the shit out of me. As in people get their news, not from the source. You go to the Financial Times. I, I sit down on Sunday mornings with the financial Times week and, and just consume what’s called random print and I’m beautifully surprised by long articles that are written thoughtfully that are not by
Jeff Bullas
00:27:05 – 00:27:31
and I, I just love what you were saying about. We need more time to reflect. Are you reading stuff that matters or are you being dragged into the machine and held captive by the machine? And it, it, for me, it’s something that’s a big deal for me because uh I’m just reading a really interesting book at the moment called a chaos machine. Hm. Hm. And that book is about,
Jeff Bullas
00:27:32 – 00:28:03
uh, the algorithms designed to create hate division. And what was really interesting. Just one little thing before. I, it’s not about me. It’s about you, but I’ll get back to you in a minute. But the reality for me was, um, Facebook back in 2015, tried to crack the Dunbar number, which is where we have a tribe. We humans can only have meaningful relationships with about 100 and 50 people. It’s about the size of a tribe. It’s wired into us. Facebook back in 2015 went to crack the Dunbar number
Jeff Bullas
00:28:05 – 00:28:34
and they sort of have. Yeah. Yeah. So this is where, and I got interviewed about 1012 years ago by a media organization in the States that said, can you talk to us about people getting their news from social media? And I went, what young people getting news from social media went? Really? They should not be going there. They should go straight to the source. So, yeah, which
Projjal Ghatak
00:28:34 – 00:29:02
is, and which is why I’m so glad that you have things that we all in pod and, and you know, other other discourses and that’s why podcasts are a great medium. Um because they tend to be slightly more long form and they’re sort of real people talking about things. So, you know, if you can’t read the ft, go listen to the all in pod or, or listen to other discourses that are long form. But, but consuming news from tiktok sensational content is just building a very negative
Projjal Ghatak
00:29:02 – 00:29:25
and, and, and, and things like suicide and helplessness will become an even bigger problem in a world where people don’t have social relationships and, and a lack of social fitness is the next epidemic after the mental health crisis because it is now conclusively proven that happiness is a factor of your real relationships in life. Um We digress.
Jeff Bullas
00:29:26 – 00:30:16
Yeah, but that’s, it’s interesting which will lead back into. I wanna, I wanna talk about your platform in terms of how you’re building it. Um Cos you could build it to be quite addictive possibly I’m saying. So there’s, there’s no and that’s the thing, good addiction, addiction, right? Um The interesting thing about this is that I just quickly digress back to the Dunbar number and what Facebook has done with groups, the groups were basically designed. Facebook groups are designed to break the Dunbar number. What was interesting beyond the Dunbar number. Other research has been done that shows once you break the 150 in that people then have to cater to a much bigger group. They become much more aggressive. Research has shown that once you break the number by number and go beyond, we’re seeing aggression and hate and fear across social media at scale.
Jeff Bullas
00:30:17 – 00:31:14
So anyway, I digress as well, but a lot of people haven’t taken the time to actually sit on their bum and read and reflect and think about what am I actually doing? And I think there’s not enough deep reflection, there’s also not enough great conversation where we actually have proper conversations, not talking about, you know, things that don’t matter, let’s talk about things that do matter. So, let’s go back to, you know, on Loop. So you have this idea that we could maybe disrupt, you know, and make people more efficient, great better managers. In other words, better humans, really. That’s what, so tell us about the idea of, of on loop and how that evolved and distilled into the application. I’ll be curious about hearing about that journey. Yeah. So,
Projjal Ghatak
00:31:14 – 00:32:13
so, you know, there’s obviously a lot that’s been written about leadership and management and organizations and how to run them. And so, um there’s, there’s enough sort of leadership consultants out there and, and approaches that they’ve taken. But unfortunately, I don’t think it’s really sort of helped make each and every manager better. Uh And one of the industries we took a lot of inspiration from is the fitness industry. And what the fitness industry has done in the last sort of decade or so is really demystify what being healthy looks like into diet, sleep and exercise. And, and then through first the Fitbit of 10,000 steps or the Apple three Rings. And now with the wan and the order ring, it’s made it much easier to form m there you go to form micro habits around those building blocks of help, right?
Projjal Ghatak
00:32:13 – 00:32:25
And so we did the same thing for the job of a manager and broke it down into five hierarchical building blocks, right? Where at the base you got to make sure that each person is energized or motivated.
Jeff Bullas
00:32:26 – 00:32:44
And you give this and you give this a name called collaborative team development development, which is a lovely acronym, which I normally hate, I hate acronyms. By the way, in other words, if you’re gonna use the acronym, you gotta explain it. That’s in the story, but CTD is the acronym. So sorry, I interrupted that structure.
Projjal Ghatak
00:32:44 – 00:33:23
Yeah. And so and so that first building block is whether someone is energized and motivated and someone’s not motivated, nothing about that matters. The second level is, are you clear on your goals and goals not defined as OKRS because OKRS are very good for businesses to clarify objectives. They are terrible at this link down for an individual what they should do. And so we define goals as targets, projects or skills because those are the three building blocks of what each person is doing only once that is clear. And we call that the two base performance layers that feedback come into play
Projjal Ghatak
00:33:24 – 00:34:10
and feedback defined as celebrating feedback to help people understand their superpowers. And then on top of that improve feedback to help understand blind spots. And then finally, at the top of ongoing learning and development. And essentially it’s every manager’s job to manage those five building blocks on a hierarchical basis and, and do that through weekly, one on ones, do that through sort of an understanding of what’s going on and do that with the random check in, do that when you’re having career conversations. And so those five building blocks show up, um, show up everywhere. And we’ve now been able to sort of work with, you know, 50 plus companies where we’ve taught managers the framework.
Projjal Ghatak
00:34:11 – 00:34:38
Um And we’ve implemented a product that makes it easy to build the right micro habits around those five layers. And, because we’re a product company first, I’m trying to make things as simple as possible and, and, and, and unfortunately often when people take a consulting approach, they tend to complex the situation. Um and, and actually, it’s not that complex. And, and what is beautiful
Projjal Ghatak
00:34:39 – 00:35:16
is that I can likely take over the job of a first time manager. And so many companies struggle with having first time managers, especially in technical jobs where they don’t have people to manage people. And actually a couple of weeks ago I got introduced to this technology by a company called Bland dot A I, they just raised their series A. I have nothing to do with that except that it blew my mind. Um And they’ve built sort of very human like A I agents to do voices where they will call you and just run a conversation through voice. And then all of that conversation can then be tracked, parsed, categorized, et cetera.
Projjal Ghatak
00:35:17 – 00:36:02
So now when you talk about people who’ve been uncomfortable with new technology, if that new technology shows up in the form of a voice call, which everybody knows how to do, the ability to then bring that tech to every person’s life is just mind blowing. And I think that’s, and that’s where I think applied A I is next level is because you don’t have to learn how to use the tech. The way to use the tech is normal human conversation, right? And, and then its ability to fully embed in people’s lives. It’s just absolutely mind blowing. And so at work today,
Projjal Ghatak
00:36:02 – 00:36:37
all the productive things that people do. I have conversations and then they spend so much time having to transcribe those conversations, write documents, write reports, make presentations, you know, run project management meetings. What if we could just have the conversation and the rest of the work just magically happened and that’s the world we should live in so that humans can go back and have meaningful conversations. Yes. And all, and all of the paperwork is just automated. Yeah. And, and that is the future we want to create for managers.
Jeff Bullas
00:36:37 – 00:37:33
I love that. You brought up quite a lot. There was the power of communication, good communication. Um And it’s one of the many things I’m interested in. But it’s also maybe one of the top things I’m interested in is that I was brought up in a, uh, really great family. My dad, um, safe looked after, encouraged us, but dad was a big talker, but it was a shit listener. And for me, the reality for me was I really want to not be like that in that particular way. Cos I had a perfect example of what bad communication looked like. So for me, the power to listen and communicate properly and distill someone’s feelings that you may be observed out of their eyes or their body language. Um the ability to actually listen
Jeff Bullas
00:37:33 – 00:38:03
and know a person deeply. And there’s a great book called How To Know a Person, which is fantastic by the way. So what I’m curious about with what you’re doing with on loop, how do you help with the communication in a, in a meaningful way? How is your communication developed within the app? I’d be curious about that because obviously, it sounds like this is a big part of what you’re trying to facilitate. So,
Projjal Ghatak
00:38:03 – 00:38:18
so it’s a great question and actually, um the biggest thing that comes in the way of people listening is their own emotions. It’s not that they don’t want to listen. It’s just that they’re more consumed by what’s going on for
Jeff Bullas
00:38:18 – 00:38:20
them, what’s going on in here,
Projjal Ghatak
00:38:20 – 00:39:07
correct and what they’re going to say next. And so the biggest issue with feedback in organizations is that when people deliver feedback, that feedback is laden by your own emotions, which actually has no value to the other person. And all good feedback is direct and kind. And so one of the things we do in the app is that people can just record their unstructured, unfiltered observations. And we will break that down into specific pieces to celebrate or improve feedback. OK. We will rewrite it following the situation behavior impact model of how to write good feedback. We will make it the right tonality of being direct and kind
Projjal Ghatak
00:39:08 – 00:39:39
and we will extract behaviors or competencies that might be embedded in it. So, if someone shows up late and you know, like I’m really pissed off that Michael showed up late today, I was a complete embarrassment, right? Like that’s, that’s how you feel, but we can then convert that to specific improved feedback to explain to Michael. Hey Michael today, when you showed up late at the meeting, it has the risk of decline believing that we don’t care about our professionalism and that can hurt our business in the future.
Projjal Ghatak
00:39:40 – 00:40:31
And therefore, it would be extremely beneficial to take extra caution to show up on time for, for important meetings. And by explaining to the person, the impact of their behavior, the chances of that driving behavior change is much harder, is, is much, is much greater, but often when we deliver feedback with emotion, we try to change behavior through fear. And actually in many cultures, especially in Asia that works, but works temporarily and it kills creativity. And so so then people are just going to do it because they are scared of the repercussions. And that actually fries your brain. And that’s why companies like Google, things like psychological safety is at the basis of sort of good team building because that’s what drives creatively. And so, and so so much about interpersonal communication
Projjal Ghatak
00:40:32 – 00:41:00
has got to do with our own emotion. And if we can use A I to sort of neutralize that and help deliver it in a way that is most beneficial to the other person, then we can massively increase how motivated people are to change behavior and how quickly behavior can change and and decades of feedback, training has completely failed at making people better because their own emotions come to it.
Jeff Bullas
00:41:00 – 00:41:10
Yes, I, I really love that because as you’re talking about, you know, someone’s showing up a meeting late and then the manager goes well, I’m really pissed off and blah, blah, blah,
Jeff Bullas
00:41:12 – 00:41:34
but good listening skills would come along the lines of saying we just spun by trying to move that aside and then you would go so sorry, you’re late here maybe something got in the way. Is there something happening at home? And uh but uh so this is where really good communication skills come in and this is where I can actually make you more human.
Projjal Ghatak
00:41:34 – 00:41:38
Yes. Absolutely. And more empathetic.
Jeff Bullas
00:41:38 – 00:42:13
Yeah. Which you think about it. This is when we intersect when a machine gets bloody scary. It didn’t. This is very powerful and I mean, scary in a good way. And for me, I’d see a, I, especially if we make sure that we do put some guardrails around it, which we haven’t done on social media. In fact, there should be a warning on social media that this is an addiction just like we do with gambling, smoking. Now. I think these are the things that we need to be putting in place because social media is actually
Jeff Bullas
00:42:14 – 00:43:05
the damage it is doing now is at scale and it’s global and it’s damaging our young people as well especially and I think what you’re doing. Yeah. So this is what’s really fascinating is that um I’m as excited by A I as I am as excited by when I stumbled into social media and went, this is gonna connect me with the world. This is gonna get past the gatekeepers. I can suddenly become a global citizen instead of just a village dweller, you know, nothing but a village dweller by the way. But for me, this is where I enhance our humanity, which sounds like you’re trying to do, which is, you know, hat tip to you. Uh JJ, it’s really fascinating and one of the most important things. A manager is looking after a team’s communication, isn’t it?
Projjal Ghatak
00:43:05 – 00:43:51
Yes. Yes. And, and that’s why it’s such a right use case for large language models because what large language models are, are a triple phd in English and, and in more, and in global organizations, often the lack of someone’s eloquence comes in the way of them being productive or making someone other productive. And, now what I can do is give everybody eloquent super powers so that you don’t have to be born into a British or American colony to be a globally relevant leader. And you can be born in Vietnam and we can give you eloquent superpowers and you can manage global teams. Global English was a native language.
Jeff Bullas
00:43:53 – 00:44:58
Look at it. The other thing that pops into my mind too is in communication. I stumbled upon a word, a phrase called a suitcase, word and the term suitcase word is like a suitcase because when you open up a suitcase inside lies many meanings. So this is the other thing about communication I’ve been dwelling on and reflecting on quite a lot recently is that if someone says I’m happy. Hm. Side that sits about 10 to 12 different meanings, you’re successful inside. That suitcase has dozens of meanings depending on culture. Success in China is going to be different to success in the USA because of cultural differences. The USA is driven by independence, the individual, whereas China is driven by the collective. So, for me, the discovery, I thought there were just a few suitcase words. I almost think that every word is a suitcase now.
Projjal Ghatak
00:45:00 – 00:45:01
No, I think that’s, I think that’s very true.
Jeff Bullas
00:45:02 – 00:45:30
Yeah. So in terms of, and now I’m treated a bit more the business side of what you’re doing. So how did you take, did you create a minimum viable product which is tossed around like confetti today in terms of uh start ups? Uh Did you create a minimal viable product? MVP, the acronym? And uh then how did you take it to market? So I’d like to hear about both of those. Choose which one?
Projjal Ghatak
00:45:31 – 00:46:20
Yeah. So, you know, it’s been, it’s been a four year journey. It’s actually, you know, being highly iterative and has changed a lot. Um And as I said, in the beginning, we really started very narrowly focused on feedback and performance reviews. But we, but we actually realized that when the pandemic hit and we all got thrown into remote and hybrid work that day to day visibility for managers across productivity of their teams became a much more everyday problem. Yes. And, and, and therefore sort of, you know, within a week of us building the app, we had users on the app, right? So, um and so we always gave what we built into the hands of users right away.
Projjal Ghatak
00:46:20 – 00:47:11
Um But it’s only earlier this year that we started seeing usage of the product really sort of go exponentially because we were able to crack the code on holistically looking at the job of a manager. Um and, and sort of thinking about that as all the parts of doing a job. Um and, and what we realize is that the lack of goal clarity in organizations is actually really hurting businesses everywhere, especially in an environment where people are being forced to do more with less. And we don’t live in a 0% interest rate environment and you can’t double your team size um every year. And so the focus on how we make sure we get roI from each person on the team has become a much bigger focus for our businesses.
Projjal Ghatak
00:47:11 – 00:47:21
Um And our, and our ability to sort of combine words and feedback to really understand what’s going on. Uh and give visibility is something that’s really resonating with CEO S and CEO Os.
Jeff Bullas
00:47:22 – 00:47:38
OK. So in other words, you did create a very minimal product to start with. Yes. Yeah. And then discovered from feedback that you needed to expand it. Yes. And that yes, then turned into a more fully functioning, which then was holistic rather than just really niche.
Projjal Ghatak
00:47:39 – 00:48:15
Correct. Yeah. The other thing, the other thing we realized is that when you’re driving culture change, you can’t just give someone a tour, you have to implement a program. Um And customers just want an outcome, right? Uh And so we, in the beginning, we were very much focused on rebuilding just a tool. But over time, we also, we also leaned into sort of training managers and doing the region of development work to make sure that um the concepts of the tool, really sort of implement the right way. Um And, and I find many software companies sort of shy away from doing the human work. Uh But going back to the topic
Projjal Ghatak
00:48:15 – 00:48:28
In today’s conversation, it’s really about how you combine the human and machine to make the maximum impact? Uh And therefore we, we do the in-person work as well to get organizations excited about a new way of driving.
Jeff Bullas
00:48:29 – 00:48:56
Ok. So that was gonna be one of my questions, was that uh how’s the business model work in terms of you’re not just selling an app and then set and forget, buy and buy and forget. So how does the business model work in terms of engagement? In other words, from acceptance to starting the journey with you and your app? How does that look? What does that look like with companies? And is there a typical um profile company size uh niche in the marketplace?
Projjal Ghatak
00:48:57 – 00:49:46
Yes. So, so we work incredibly well with organizations that are between 100 and 500 people and that could be 100 to 500 person company or it can be 100 to 500 person division within a larger company uh where we sort of sell the product directly to the owner of the PNL uh to sort of usher in a new way to manage their organization and to drive uh day to day productivity. Um And we, and we price the product on an annual subscription. Um and, and that is priced based on a combination of how many people are in the organization. Um And what and what is the average compensation per employee in the organization? Uh Because that does that with the product travels better across borders and across different industries because ultimately the value
Projjal Ghatak
00:49:46 – 00:50:15
We provide uh by making each knowledge worker more productive. Uh And that’s a factor of how much you pay a person. Um And so, and then we priced it as an annual subscription uh based on, based on the number of people and, and sort of the average salary. So for an organization, um that’s, that’s about sort of 150 people. It could be in the tune of $20,000 a year. Uh And, and we sort of, you sort of start at about $6000 a year.
Jeff Bullas
00:50:16 – 00:50:19
So is that paid monthly or is that paid a one off fee,
Projjal Ghatak
00:50:20 – 00:50:21
paid monthly, paid
Jeff Bullas
00:50:21 – 00:50:32
monthly? Ok. So, uh because uh I, I could imagine that your application would be quite sticky once it gets within an organization, it’s hard to actually leave it behind.
Projjal Ghatak
00:50:33 – 00:51:01
Yeah. So it depends. So, where we’ve seen real stickiness is when all the goals in the company get trapped on the platform. So, we have a customer in the US seeking now uh where their operations team was really struggling to help cascade goals through the organization. Uh And now we’ve been able to help them sort of drive clarity through Oregon and, and the product gets used in their monthly leadership meetings, it also gets used in board meetings. And so once it becomes part of the operating system of the business,
Projjal Ghatak
00:51:02 – 00:51:27
um it becomes quite critical and, and frankly, I think every company today needs to make themselves mission critical to running a business or else you don’t have a business. Uh because the level of discretionary spending that people have is lower in today’s economic environment. Um And so, and so your product sort of needs to be mission critical for you to have a grow, growing healthy business,
Jeff Bullas
00:51:27 – 00:52:01
right? So you’re working in basically management um amplification and efficiency and productivity and producing a better bottom line for the company. Do you see yourself? Um For me, I’m just as I’m thinking while you’re talking, which I shouldn’t be, I should just be listening. Um Are there any applications or are there other places where your sort of approach could be used in a product road map? I suppose I’m talking about without you having to talk about it. But is that on your horizon?
Projjal Ghatak
00:52:02 – 00:52:38
That’s a good question. So, the way I look at our job in the world is that our job in the world is to help corporations and organizations really transform themselves in this world of applied A I and hybrid work. Um And so, and sort of the first sort of use case we were focused on is the job of a manager. Uh And how do we sort of demystify that job, make that job easier uh to, to sort of drive pr oy. But um in the future, um you know, what gets me excited about Bill’s company for a very long time is that as we discussed, the
Projjal Ghatak
00:52:38 – 00:53:18
uh the the future of work will change significantly given all the technologies at, at day and also how companies are globally structured uh where they hire folks um um sort of where work gets done. Um And so I tell people, I want to be the volunteer of work for transformation at the end of A I and, and, and sort of help organizations go through this journey. Uh big and big and small. Um And, and sort of be a, be a guide to our products as well as other offerings uh to help them to help them not just be more efficient, but also be more effective in the o
Jeff Bullas
00:53:19 – 00:53:46
Yeah. The other question I have, which a lot of people will ask too is that you uh did, did you have a background in software development or technology? I know that, you know, basically, uh the area you worked and I think you did a double, double degree, didn’t you? Out of Singapore, correct. Yeah. So, what were, what were those degrees in? I think one was a Bachelor of Science, was it or? Um, yeah.
Projjal Ghatak
00:53:46 – 00:54:24
So, so, you know, I, I, I’ve written code, uh, till I was 22 years old. Uh, and, and, and since then I haven’t, but, um, computer science is my favorite subject in high school. Um And, and one of my degrees was in information systems management. Um But I, I really thrive on being with people and around people. Um And so the people side of businesses versus the technology side was a greater calling. And I guess on Loops helped me find a way to merge both together.
Jeff Bullas
00:54:24 – 00:55:23
Yeah, that’s right. Um The, the thing um I suppose a lot of people um well, a lot of people, some people take a lot longer to find out what they should be doing as Joseph Campbell says, follow your bliss. And that doesn’t just bliss doesn’t mean drinking red wine or getting drunk and having a party time. But following your bliss actually comes from innate curiosity. And I think I noticed that you wrote at the beginning of your triangle, your collaborative team development, which starts with energy goals, celebrating, improving and growing. Um So, I mean, a little bit curious about it, I was gonna ask you another question. I’m gonna ask you this one. Now um energy. OK. So energy is a very interesting thing. It can be another word that can be used to describe it is drive.
Jeff Bullas
00:55:24 – 00:55:55
So when I started my blog about social media, I discovered, tapped into a what I’d call a power source that I don’t even know where it came from. But it was driven by innate curiosity and wanting to learn. It was almost like I had a nuclear engine attached to my brain and I got up at 4:30 a.m. and wrote till I started my day job at 9 a.m. So energy, tell us about how you see the suitcase we called energy.
Projjal Ghatak
00:55:55 – 00:56:50
Mm No, great question. So, um I think there’s, I think there’s a couple of ways to unpack that. So um one for me, energy at the base of productivity became incredibly poignant when I, for the first time in 2022 was diagnosed with clinical anxiety. Um And I’ve been under psychiatric and psychological support since, but I was able to see what anxiety did to my productivity and, and, and that had never happened to me before. Uh It was, it was both scary but also eye opening around how a generally capable human being uh sort of is not, not able to get a whole lot done. Uh If that’s, if that’s broken at the base of it. Um And,
Projjal Ghatak
00:56:50 – 00:57:41
and, and that sort of, you know, really sort of made it very clear to me that how you’re feeling and how full your battery is, is such a foundational driver of, of how productive you are or not. Um And then, and then I believe that what fills your energy is, whether you feel as close to your purpose as possible. Um And feel a sense of progress towards those purpose stories, right? So, um and, and I’ve been lucky that in my life, my purpose pillars are incredibly clear. It’s the future of my family. It’s the future of work in A I as the future of Singapore as a country. Um And, and essentially, if as much as my day is filled with those three, and I feel a sense of progress,
Projjal Ghatak
00:57:41 – 00:58:35
My energy bar is full. Now, one of the, one of the myths of burnout and obviously, the word burnout has been in the literature significantly uh in the last few years is that people believe burnout happens when you’re running fast for long periods of time. That’s actually completely false. Burnout happens when you’re running fast, a long amount of time and expecting a dopamine hit every time and you don’t get the dopamine hit. And so as a result, you feel apathetic and unmotivated because you’re not getting the progress hit every time. But if you’re working 16 hours a day and you’re making very meaningful progress, you can keep going for a very long time. And that’s why energy and goals really play hand in hand. To drive base or productivity because, and that’s why the goals
Projjal Ghatak
00:58:35 – 00:59:26
are not always quantitative, they can be projects you’re working on or skills you’re developing because that’s also not very much continuous, but it’s important to reflect, to feel that sense of progress because if you don’t feel that sense of progress, it sort of chips away at your battery. Um And so, and so, you know, we just define energy as productive capacity and the productive capacity to do more and do more tough things. Um And, and, and often when someone’s not doing a good job, people give them improved feedback and criticism, but that actually only makes the energy worse. And, and that’s why for us improving feedback sits at the very top of that pyramid, but that’s more reserved for high performers and low performers. And, and I tell managers if you have a low performer, it is broken at the bottom two las
Projjal Ghatak
00:59:27 – 00:59:45
and either the person is not motivated, other persons not deeply clear and characterize how to form. Um And, and you know, I went to a battery level like it’s your iphone. Like is your, is, is your iphone at 80% or 20%? Um Like I would say right now, like.
Jeff Bullas
00:59:45 – 01:00:32
I’m quite stressed at work and as I figure out a fundraise and sort of financial plan for the company. And so I’m operating on pretty high levels of stress. Uh And I’m operating sort of at the 35 40% battery work. Um That, that means I can still be productive, but I know that it’s significantly diminished versus what I can be at 80 to 100 and, and, and it’s important for me to keep doing things every day that keep recharging the battery bit by bit. Uh When you’re running a company, you can’t just go and say I’m gonna take three weeks off uh in, in crucial times, you’ve got to do it on an ongoing basis. Uh But I think awareness of the it is super, super important because then you can do something about it and you imagine you can do something about
Jeff Bullas
01:00:32 – 01:00:32
it.
Projjal Ghatak
01:00:32 – 01:01:08
Yeah. Thank you very much for sharing your story with anxiety. Clinical anxiety. Look, I’ve suffered from it over the years as well on and off, but maybe not clinical. Uh But I’ve suffered from it. Um I, my partner committed suicide six years ago and I didn’t have anxiety before that, but two or three months later, it showed up. Um And uh yeah, so different things trigger it. Can you reveal maybe is there anything that triggered your anxiety that you can reveal?
Jeff Bullas
01:01:09 – 01:01:30
You know? Thank you for, thank you for sharing that. I’m sorry. Um I mean, I think for me it was the stress of being an entrepreneur uh and, and, and going through significant challenges with the team or with the product or, or other piece and sort of having an existential dread around. Oh, people were right. You won’t make it and
Projjal Ghatak
01:01:31 – 01:01:33
the fear of the future. Yeah.
Jeff Bullas
01:01:34 – 01:02:26
Right. Right. Um And, and sort of, and sort of really, I think what really helped in therapy was getting over that existential threat. Um And, and, and knowing that irrespective of the outcome, I will be ok. Um And, and things will be ok. Um And, and, and I, and I think that often comes from things in childhood and needing to prove yourself and other things. And so, um, and, and frankly, I, I didn’t even know that there was stuff from childhood that I had because, you know, by, by most intents and purposes, I had a good childhood. Right. So, um so, you know, I, um I’ve been very fortunate that I’ve had access to very good psychological and psychiatric support. Um And a lot of people don’t even get access to it
Jeff Bullas
01:02:27 – 01:02:46
and, and frankly, for me, I think it’s been there for a long time. Um I think it, it sort of reached a head when I sort of, I became an entrepreneur. Uh And then, and then I think the self pressures around that sort of took it to a different level.
Projjal Ghatak
01:02:47 – 01:03:32
Yeah, it’s a very interesting space and uh you know, you see some friends and family sometimes struggle with mental health slash anxiety. Um you know, small, small and big and it’s a challenge trying to work out the answers to those which are very complicated because humans are very complicated and we sometimes don’t have the answers to what confronts us, but just going to go back to basically energy and reflection about that because I’m intrigued by where does it rise from? Whereas in terms of an entrepreneur and being a creator, because you’re a creator. In other words, you’ve come up with an idea and you’ve produced something, you’re sharing it with the world.
Projjal Ghatak
01:03:32 – 01:03:59
I think on reflection as you, as you talked. And it’s something I’ve looked at myself is that um I think energy rises in a variety of ways, but I think one of those ways is where you create something and then you get affirmation because as humans, we are actually affirmation machines as well. We need to be told that you’re doing well. Um And growing up in a family where you’re told you’re never good enough, can be really debilitating.
Projjal Ghatak
01:03:59 – 01:04:42
But I think for me in reflecting on what you’re saying in that you need to get results and so on. Well on a corporate go you know, business layer that’s sales revenue, profitability. OK? That’s affirmation. Whereas a creator, you create something and you share it on social media and then you get that affirmed and then it’s like that is almost a dopamine hit on its own, right? But I think that loop and that’s not a vicious loop. That is actually a positive, you know, power loop that creates an affirmation, then you go. Oh Yeah, that worked. So this is where I think we get into the realms of where we’re using the machine,
Projjal Ghatak
01:04:43 – 01:05:29
whether it’s a machine to spread your information, it’s a machine to make you more productive, becomes its own. And um yeah, I just love what you’re doing in terms of enhancing humanity through the machine um to make us even more human and better humans, I think is just fantastic. Um So just to wrap it up and then I’m going to ask you one question about what brings you deep joy or happiness. And I mean, that deep satisfaction, not from having a good party at night, but having a dinner table conversation brings me deep joy. And it’s not necessarily about having a glass or two of wine. It’s more about the fun conversation, being part of a community and group. Um But i’m so in terms of uh
Projjal Ghatak
01:05:30 – 01:05:47
uh your business in terms of going forward. Uh You’ve talked about the price points, you’ve talked about, you know, the factors that it started with a very, very focused result. Um So how many, how many in your team now and how much have you raised? Just for interest’s sake?
Jeff Bullas
01:05:47 – 01:06:37
Yeah, we’re about, we’re about 13 people uh in our or we do um under a million so hundreds of $1000 in revenue uh per, per year. Um And we raised a couple of different rounds of financing. Um And we’ve also sort of restructured the company a little bit uh to sort of set up for, for the next phase, but I am raising about a million dollars right now uh to sort of get us to what is typically known as ac A um in, in, in tech colleges. Um And, and frankly, one of the things that has really changed for me in the last year or so, uh is this focus on profitable growth? Um and, and getting the business to break even as quickly as possible, uh When I first started the company in 2020 when sort of venture
Jeff Bullas
01:06:37 – 01:07:27
was, was rampant. And people like, well, you don’t have to think about um sort of profitability just grow and, and then money is always available. Um And obviously that, that rhetoric is very different nowadays and that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Um And, and, and, you know, II, I feel much more like a bootstrap entrepreneur nowadays where I have to worry about how much money is coming in every month and, and, and, and sort of whether we have enough cash flow. Um and, and what I tell people is, you know, not building anything deep tech, right? It’s not that we have to do years and years of um R and D uh to sort of have a product that can offer value. And, and so, and so for us, we will
Jeff Bullas
01:07:28 – 01:08:14
keep building the business commiserate with uh what capital we can attract, right? So there’s a pathway to making the business profitable. Um in the next few months, there’s a pathway of investing significantly into growth and, and, and sort of trying to grow faster uh and, and sort of spending more. And so, you can sort of take a different path based on what makes the most sense for the business. Uh But, but, but for me, uh because this is my life’s work, um and I’m very focused on the mission of the work that we do. Um you know, making the business big is important, but making the business impactful is even more and I’d rather impact 20 companies and impact them really well
Jeff Bullas
01:08:14 – 01:08:44
versus having 2000 clients, but they all paid for my product. But I was able to sort of, you know, make more revenue, right. So, um and I think as an entrepreneur, you should have to be honest with yourself on top of like what, what drives you and um you know, frankly building a uniform is not something I, I sit and think about every day I sit and think about whether we can successfully the company to work with and if that is to a uniform, right? If that doesn’t, that’s also,
Projjal Ghatak
01:08:45 – 01:08:51
I think that’s a good attitude and I think that might produce less anxiety if you take that approach.
Jeff Bullas
01:08:52 – 01:09:32
Yeah, I think, I think generally living within your own body and feeling a sense of control is important. I lost a lot of work in understanding my personality type and my engram and M BT I, and really understanding what drives me and what my basic fears are. Um Igen hates being controlled. I have a fear of losing control. Uh And I, and I think that is something that’s important to listen to as you go about building your own business because ultimately, so much of what the company becomes is the founder and how the fund operates and knowing yourself deeply, I think is super important as a starting point.
Projjal Ghatak
01:09:32 – 01:10:03
I think. So I, I really think that’s important to know yourself. Um And I think that’s one of them, if you can know yourself and understand where you come from, then it’s easy for you to understand others and that becomes, that’s a very powerful place to come from. And i’m so just that final question, what brings you deep purposeful joy? Um If you had all the money in the world JJ, what would you do every day?
Jeff Bullas
01:10:03 – 01:10:06
Mm. Listen, I, I,
Jeff Bullas
01:10:09 – 01:10:59
I think one of the things that has been very um interesting is becoming a father. Um and, and I don’t think you can really imagine words to be a parent until you become a parent. And, I think now being responsible for an anti human development as a project is just deeply meaningful. And, and, and frankly, if I became super successful, but I wasn’t proud of how I raised my child. I consider myself a failure. And, and so really sort of taking that responsibility seriously and, and both the joy of spending time with him, but also um sort of being intentional about uh how we raise him is, is the greatest responsibility of our life,
Projjal Ghatak
01:11:00 – 01:11:20
right? And that’s what’s great about family is that um I, I think if you get to that, what we call a, I’d call a safe place, a safe place such as home and family in that there, you have that home base to actually go out into the world and make a difference, don’t you?
Jeff Bullas
01:11:20 – 01:11:44
No. And that’s why the future of my family is the first purpose pillar and the most important purpose pillar. And if that purpose pillar is broken, I don’t think anything else matters. And in fact, I’ve always been very professionally driven and my career has always come first. But I think it’s different when you start your own family. And I’m very grateful that I got the opportunity to because many people don’t.
Projjal Ghatak
01:11:44 – 01:12:25
Yeah. JJ, thank you very much for sharing your stories and insights. It’s been an absolute blast. It’s been a joy for me to have this conversation with you and um uh for me just being able to hear beautiful people with, you know, intelligence and passion uh share their stories. Um I, this is a gift for me to do this. So thank you very much for sharing. And I look forward to hearing more about your journey and your evolution and growth of um on loop. So where can they find you? JJ and the company?
Jeff Bullas
01:12:25 – 01:12:41
Yeah. So linkedin, linkedin is the best place to get in touch with me. Um I’m JJ H um on, on linkedin, the companies on linkedin too. Uh And so I read every message that comes to me. So I’d love to hear from folks and our websites on.com.
Projjal Ghatak
01:12:43 – 01:12:50
Thanks JJ and look forward to next time we even catch up in person in Singapore around the weather would be great. So, thank you.
Jeff Bullas
01:12:51 – 01:12:53
Thank you, Jeff. Thank you.