Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond are are the Co-Founders of Bottoms Up Bagels.
Bottoms Up Bagels® is a small batch bagel shop, preparing handmade, authentic NJ style bagels, house cured lox and specialty cream cheeses. Inspired by the traditions of bagel-making dating back to the 1940s, these Jersey girls founded BUB in 2015. Bottoms Up Bagels brings classic flavors to long-time residents and transplants alike.
BUB began as a pop-up based business in Baltimore City and grew from there thanks to their team members and devoted customers, collaborators and champions (aka “BUBalas”).
In 2019 they launched the BUB Roadshow, testing their concept in areas off-the-beaten-path. In 2023 they were named Grand Prize Winner in the Lenovo Evolve Small Mentorship Contest, receiving mentorship from Queen Latifah.
Joan and Michelle believe in community and that the exchange of a lovingly prepared meal and passionate service are the most valuable of gifts. They serve food the way they like to eat it and the way they would prepare it for you in our home.
Hear more about Michelle and Joan, and the business of BUB on their podcast: Proofing Stage.
What you will learn
- Discover how a terrible corporate breakfast sparked the birth of a bagel business
- Hear about the BUB Roadshow: A daring venture taking bagels across the US
- Discover the behind-the-scenes efforts in sourcing ingredients and adapting recipes to local tastes
- Gain insights into the critical role of community and peer support in navigating the complexities of the food industry
- Explore the strategy for scaling a bagel business amidst the challenges of labor costs
- Find out how BUB maintained their brand identity and quality through partnerships
- Plus loads more!
Transcript
Jeff Bullas
00:00:03 – 00:00:10
Hi, everyone and welcome to the Jeff Bullas show today I have with me the Bagel Bunnies. That’s what I’m gonna call them.
Joan Kanner
00:00:11 – 00:00:14
We’re Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond, not a bagel bunny.
Jeff Bullas
00:00:15 – 00:00:49
So we have Joan Kanner and Michelle Bond who are the co-founders of Bottom Up Bagels and we could go a lot of different ways with that name, but we’re not going to. So before co-founding Bottoms Up Bagels also known as BUB. Joan had a 15 year career in academia that included social science research and detailed heavy fire hose act grants and contracts administration. She also created the music streaming app Fugue, which would suggest to me that they like music that lets you hear what you want and forget what you don’t.
Jeff Bullas
00:00:49 – 00:01:10
Um So now they have started bagels because they went to a crap breakfast at a corporation and everyone hated their breakfast and they went, we can do better than this. And consequently, BUB was born. Welcome to the show ladies. It’s an absolute pleasure to have you here. And can you identify yourselves because I just see you collectively as Joan really at this stage on my screen. So,
Joan Kanner
00:01:11 – 00:01:17
Oh, for sure. So I am Joan Kanner. So if you guys like a little bit of vocal fry, I’m your woman.
Michelle Bond
00:01:18 – 00:01:20
And I’m Michelle Bond.
Jeff Bullas
00:01:21 – 00:01:35
Ok. And she’s the sister of James Bond. And uh that’s really cool. And uh she’s also a friend of Patrick Quinn who introduced to me and there’s a story about what they did at college. We’re not going to go there either.
Michelle Bond
00:01:36 – 00:01:39
No, no, we don’t have enough time for that. There were
Joan Kanner
00:01:39 – 00:01:43
no smartphones back then. Is that correct Michelle? Thank God.
Jeff Bullas
00:01:44 – 00:01:46
Did they have smartphones when you went to college?
Michelle Bond
00:01:46 – 00:01:46
No.
Joan Kanner
00:01:47 – 00:01:53
No, we’re all better off. Well, I mean, you and I would be interested in that story, Jeff, but they don’t want that out in the w
Jeff Bullas
00:01:54 – 00:01:58
When I went to college, there wasn’t even the internet. So that’s how old I am.
Michelle Bond
00:01:59 – 00:02:01
Yeah, we’re on the cusp.
Jeff Bullas
00:02:01 – 00:02:05
Are you on the cusp? Ok. I wasn’t even near the cusp. I was more.
Joan Kanner
00:02:06 – 00:02:07
Huh?
Jeff Bullas
00:02:09 – 00:02:36
Ok. So we’re gonna talk about all things bagels and how this all started and uh we’re gonna see what the call was to go from being anonymous to being bagel moguls. And we want to hear a lot more about this. So ladies tell us, was this a drunk evening at a sports bar somewhere that you came up with the idea? How did this bagel business start?
Joan Kanner
00:02:37 – 00:02:58
That’s sort of like the Hemingway approach, right? Like get really drunk and start writing at the side of a boat that’s mostly like how I write our commercials, just like, you know what I mean? Like, there’s other types of energy with that. But I think, like other entrepreneurs, we just saw a massive need for the product that we make and that we grew up loving. Yeah.
Michelle Bond
00:02:58 – 00:03:31
And we had, um, we were both in other careers as you alluded to in the intro and we had, had gone 10 dozen, 10 or a dozen years without having what we knew to be a bagel chewy, you know, a little bit of crunch on the outside, full flavor, um treat. That was not only the food itself but the kind of culture around it being from the northeast originally. And so we had been in a bunch of breakfast meetings where we saw,
Michelle Bond
00:03:31 – 00:04:16
Even if people liked what was in front of them, they had an opinion on it, which was also valuable. Oh, this, well, this isn’t as good as that place. That place isn’t as good as that, you know. And so, um, so that’s one piece of it. The other piece was that we were always looking for, uh, we had this dream of having a food business. And so, um, we were foodies, you know, spent a lot of our time and at that point, money going out to eat following trends doing that kind of stuff. Um, but we kind of felt a little bit lost in taking for granted as consumers as, as food diners. And so the first thing that we did was set out to see if other people felt the way that we did. So
Jeff Bullas
00:04:16 – 00:04:18
we created
Michelle Bond
00:04:18 – 00:05:07
about um about what was missing in the food scene to start, right. So we separately had this feeling about bagels, but, but we were kind of generally looking for eating trends among people in our area. And so we put together a survey, Joan has a survey and grants administration background. I have a marketing and community development background. And so um we kind of brought those things together and uh just started asking, you know, putting the survey out online, taking ads in the local paper, going to farmers markets to see what people were missing, what people, what kinds of foods they, they thought that they might like to see in the area what kind of price points they were looking for the way that they actually dined out all of those things. And that started to
Michelle Bond
00:05:07 – 00:05:21
give a little bit of backbone to this idea that having a quality, inexpensive but filling option uh which is what we see bagels to be um was, was uh we were onto something there.
Jeff Bullas
00:05:22 – 00:05:35
So, so you did research and what the research showed that there was um that the food wall was 11 bagel short of a full wall. Was that really
Joan Kanner
00:05:35 – 00:05:52
what it was? Oh, I love that. We totally use that credit you, of course, is always attributions very important coming from the research world. But like there’s so much stuff that we learned, we’re asking also about like star chef bullshit culture. Like at that point, you had people who were like lower, like lowercase like star
Joan Kanner
00:05:53 – 00:06:15
uh chefs in our area saying like, I know you want, you guys want communal tables like hell do I want a communal table? You know what I mean? Like, well, like that’s the kind of stuff that was happening. So we also want to ask about those behaviors and, and things things like do people like really noisy restaurants? Does it matter where you’re eating if it’s going to be like a like a white tablecloth restaurant? Do you want to make sure it’s gonna be quieter and be more about ambience? So
Joan Kanner
00:06:16 – 00:06:33
we got that info as well. Although Lord knows like bagels really aren’t like a white tablecloth kind of thing. But people kind of want they, they did like want bagels but they also want stuff we have a shit ton of which is also a unit of measurement in case you were wondering that we use in the States. But there’s so many
Jeff Bullas
00:06:34 – 00:06:37
Yeah, that very scientific term, a shit load of stuff, right? Yeah. Yeah.
Joan Kanner
00:06:38 – 00:07:04
100%. So they like for things like there’s only like pizzerias like all over this part of the world but like people can’t get enough like, you know, pizza, they want something better. So, I think bagels are that thing that are ubiquitous, at least in the States and they have some decent places by you. So, I’ve heard through the internet, but they don’t, it’s hard to find something that really matches up what you’re looking for. I think that was something that came through in the survey results as well. Right.
Jeff Bullas
00:07:04 – 00:07:16
So did the research show that instead of a communal table, you really needed a small bagel booth, something like that. So you could have intimate bagel conversations with your own bagel, come up
Joan Kanner
00:07:16 – 00:07:34
a better way to eat it in your car alone while listening to your podcast with very tinted windows to not see how you eat. Like Cookie Monster, which is how I eat generally very, very dark windows and like, and just have access to getting your car cleaned regularly for all the everything seeds in your
Michelle Bond
00:07:34 – 00:07:59
car. I mean, I think the main thing was that, you know, and we’ve always, it’s been, it’s been a tough line to tell for us too because it’s a handmade product. Um, it’s crafted, but there’s nothing pretentious about it. And that’s the kind of stuff that was coming up, which is like, you know, we’re missing, there’s a huge gap between white table cloth and take out and,
Michelle Bond
00:07:59 – 00:08:29
and that’s what people were looking for. And so that really kind of hit our sweet spot because we wanted to create something that, you know, I mean, the bagels themselves are handmade but then the sandwiches that we’re putting together they’re made to order and, you know, and at the same, and you have people who are connected to the community and who know you and all that kind of stuff. Um, but it’s not out of your price range. You can do it a few times a week. Um, you can also do it and be full for until your next meal. You know. So that’s the, those are the kind of threads that we pulled out of there.
Jeff Bullas
00:08:30 – 00:09:04
Ok. So you’ve, you’ve had the call as we call it the hero’s journey to start a bagel business after doing the, doing the research. So what happened next in that you’re going, ok, we’re just going to go to markets and do the hard work at, you know, basically, I suppose, you know, knocking doors down testing people at markets. Um The hard graft, in other words, before you, you know, launch a full bricks and mortar store. Is that what happened?
Michelle Bond
00:09:05 – 00:09:52
It is. Yeah. So we had, we had grown, um you know, we started in our home. Um we started doing farmers markets in the area. We quickly had enough demand where we wanted to also do catering and sell direct to consumers under the laws here. You can’t do that unless you’re in a licensed facility. Not to mention, like depending on what’s on your menu. Um If you’re doing locks or something like, like we were as well. You know, house made salmon needs to be in a controlled environment. Can’t be in our house. So, um, so we, we really based the bus, the first phase of the business around that model of, of doing pop ups. So pop ups in farmers markets with breweries and art galleries. And um,
Michelle Bond
00:09:52 – 00:10:12
oh my God at bike races at outdoor concerts. I mean, we did, you know that was the model for the first four plus years. And we, and we developed quite a following that way. And then we were also doing wholesale to local cafes and restaurants and um the catering for, for different customers, both institutions and individuals.
Jeff Bullas
00:10:12 – 00:10:24
Right. So was there a, so you did get a went back to the 1940s I believe, to get a, a recipe for a bagel. Is that correct? Or did we go back further than that?
Joan Kanner
00:10:25 – 00:10:49
I think we had to both travel through time but also a parallel universe. Um I have to say that I did patent the technology. So sorry, cool cats. Um That was mine because I want to not to go back to the forties. I want to go back to the forties where women were working in these roles, almost like a league of their own, like playing baseball and doing having other jobs and creating stuff because like, and
Jeff Bullas
00:10:49 – 00:10:53
building ammunition for the wall. That’s what they’re also doing, I think
Joan Kanner
00:10:54 – 00:11:11
building ammunition. Um And, and this, but in this case, we never go back to not working in that parallel universe. I mean, trust me, I love putting women back in the kitchen. That’s what we’ve done with our business. It’s very radical, like radical feminist right there. Take that Barbie,
Jeff Bullas
00:11:11 – 00:11:15
is that in your mission statement? Get women back in the kitchen, is that right?
Joan Kanner
00:11:15 – 00:11:20
Yeah, that’s just so we can get, you know what I mean? I mean, it, that way, the people who got the money believe in that. So,
Jeff Bullas
00:11:21 – 00:11:41
and by the way, uh, listeners and viewers, this is actually humor, by the way, this is not serious because, uh, some people don’t get irony. And, uh, you know, so it’s ok, we, we’re joking all about putting women back in the kitchen. We actually brought them out of the kitchen, making bagels in factories. Really? That’s what I really want to do
Joan Kanner
00:11:43 – 00:11:45
that ammunition, but don’t get them twisted.
Michelle Bond
00:11:45 – 00:11:46
Well, a
Jeff Bullas
00:11:46 – 00:11:50
very hard bagel can be ammunition. By the way, I’ve heard that
Michelle Bond
00:11:50 – 00:12:31
is true. Ours are of that type. It’s a good job where by day three or four you don’t want to be. Yeah, you have to be preservative. That’s what I’m saying. But that’s the old school. I mean, we, we did start with an original New York New York bagel recipe. But the 19 forties, part of our story is that it’s the places that we grew up going to that in Northern New Jersey that inspired this idea of, um or not even this idea of what we missed, which was not only the bagel itself but all of the activity around it. You know, the person yelling at the person um in the back who had the mixer going racks of, of baked,
Michelle Bond
00:12:31 – 00:12:48
you know, goods going in front of your face while, while there’s a line out the door, the, the smell of the, of the onion and garlic coming out of that bag when you picked it up, like all of those things were really part of, um, what we missed and what we wanted to try to recreate
Joan Kanner
00:12:48 – 00:12:58
like Diego Rivera, a huge mural only instead of other machinery, they were making bagels, I went to a factory and they were open 24 hours, the place I used to go to
Jeff Bullas
00:12:58 – 00:13:39
and you can run to bagel tours that it would be fantastic. But the thing about food for me, ok, I wouldn’t call myself really a foodie, but I do love food, but I also like the ambience of the food eating. Ok. And that usually involves both the people and the environment. And I remember going to a fantastic, well, one of the best restaurants in Italy, apparently I was told in um uh when I went to speak there for the first time on the other side of the world, a long time ago, uh when Adam and Eve had just been created and the reality, but still alive. That’s right. And
Joan Kanner
00:13:39 – 00:13:40
pinch cheeks and,
Jeff Bullas
00:13:40 – 00:13:44
yeah, that’s right. And, and fondling supermodels. Um, so,
Joan Kanner
00:13:48 – 00:13:50
and now we’re not joking. That’s true. That’s true. Yeah.
Jeff Bullas
00:13:50 – 00:14:32
Sorry, sorry to Berlusconi. You’re turning in your grave. Um, but I went to a lovely restaurant supposed with the best food, but it was, the ambience was like a laundromat. It had, uh, it had fluorescent lighting, it was so bright and we had a, you know, the, the football were playing on the big screen down the corner and supposedly it was the best food in town. And, uh, yeah, I don’t like eating in laundromats. It’s just got the ambience of a really mass produced factory and I really didn’t like it. So, let me tell us about, you know, you were talking about going back to the old times and about, you know, enjoying people out the door and, you know, arguments in the kitchen and, uh,
Jeff Bullas
00:14:32 – 00:14:38
you know, a bit of dwarf tossing, maybe occasionally thrown in which is inappropriate and joke by the way,
Joan Kanner
00:14:38 – 00:14:40
the little people.
Jeff Bullas
00:14:41 – 00:14:51
That’s right. The little people. That’s right. Which I, I would almost fit into really, if I was stood next to lebron James, really? I would be seen as a dwarf next to him, but I think we’re frozen here.
Jeff Bullas
00:14:54 – 00:14:58
Are we back? Ok. Right. Frozen?
Jeff Bullas
00:15:02 – 00:15:04
Have we got internet here? Right.
Joan Kanner
00:15:05 – 00:15:07
Perhaps I’m unstable.
Jeff Bullas
00:15:09 – 00:15:16
Oh, we’re back, we’re back. Ok. Right. Where were we, uh, small people tossing. That’s what we were talking about,
Michelle Bond
00:15:16 – 00:15:16
wasn’t it?
Jeff Bullas
00:15:18 – 00:15:27
Yeah. Sorry. Ambience of a restaurant. Tell us about the ambience of your bagel store restaurant. What does it look like? Can you describe it?
Joan Kanner
00:15:27 – 00:15:57
I, I will start by saying that it is very important for us not to have any hidden labor. Meaning traditionally you have in a restaurant and even some bakeries in front of the house. So people who take your order, they hand off your order to you. Um They give you the coffee, what have you and there is the back of the house, the people that produce, you know, the egg sandwiches who like work on the dough itself, who are like washing the dishes. And when we designed the space, we want to make sure that our shop and any future shops would, would not have that division.
Joan Kanner
00:15:57 – 00:16:32
You mean in terms of labor, you know, in terms of like the zones that people play, I guess using like a football, soccer reference, you play, you might play zone or play, man, right? So, um I’m gonna make sure we keep our listeners along too to explain what we were talking about. Um uh So by having and also by having like not in front of the house and back in the house, it’s just simply how you work as a different team dynamic and you make sure that tip splitting is also more equitable. You get to see uh it’s more authentic by nature, seeing us if you see a 60 co mixer and you’re still going to ask me, do you make the bagels here that’s on you, man.
Joan Kanner
00:16:33 – 00:16:45
This is not for show. No one’s buying like a 60 chord Hobart just to show it off like, hey, you know, this is what I have. So that was like the first bit of ambience or scene setting.
Michelle Bond
00:16:46 – 00:17:30
Yeah, very. Um we looked a long time for this particular place because it, it was more of a rectangular shape, you know, being in, in a city like Baltimore, most of the available properties that we were looking at um at that time to rent were row houses. So, you know, front to back, which made it pretty difficult to, to realize this concept that we wanted to where you kind of see everything before your eyes as you walked in. And so, um the place that we ended up um building out was a, a perfect rectangle, so to speak and, and huge windows where um as Joan said, you know, there was a counter but all the production was going on right behind the counter and there’s um
Michelle Bond
00:17:30 – 00:17:43
uh seating at the counter and seating in the windows uh was the, was the goal. Um You know, unfortunately COVID kind of had those seats empty most of the whole time that we were there. But that was the intention.
Joan Kanner
00:17:44 – 00:17:49
But the windows though, it was always like a trans people and they’re waiting for their order can, like, look inside and see all the inner workings.
Jeff Bullas
00:17:50 – 00:18:02
So, so you’ve got this, you got sort of desks, well, not desk but the tables and you’ve got also, you can sit up at the bar. Is that right? Like, um,
Michelle Bond
00:18:02 – 00:18:12
yeah, that’s the idea. That was the idea. Um, and then along the wall under the hood, you know, you’ve got the flat top and the ovens and the, and the kettle boiler and all that stuff work as well.
Jeff Bullas
00:18:12 – 00:18:40
So, yeah, I quite, I quite like, you know, the long sort of, uh, bar approach where you, because the reality is that tables are for couples, really not for single people. Right. So, if you want to sit and bump into someone and you, especially if you travel a traveler, for example, right? You can sit up at a bar and bump into people and end up having a conversation, which is rather nice. Um, whereas if you just sit on your own at a table, it looks a bit lonely and looks like you’re a loser, really, doesn’t it?
Michelle Bond
00:18:40 – 00:18:41
So, you’re
Joan Kanner
00:18:41 – 00:18:50
hired to approach in that way. I mean, it’s ok if you want to be, like, left alone. But, you know, I have no idea how many people, like left books behind or pulled down hats at the shop.
Michelle Bond
00:18:50 – 00:19:17
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we had mostly people outside. So, because of COVID. So, you know, same thing we did, we, we didn’t have a bar outside. We had, you know, two tops and four tops and you’re right in that, I mean, when we travel it’s the same, we always sit at the bar even when there’s two of us for, for that same, you know, to get that same kind of, uh, experience of just connecting with random people and, and digging all in what’s going on.
Jeff Bullas
00:19:18 – 00:19:33
Yeah. Well, it’s, and it’s great, you know. So uh I have my favorite places in San Francisco that I go to where I consider them are. And I’ve ended up having the most fascinating conversations. And um that’s the fun. One of the fun parts of traveling is meeting new people that speak another language such as, you know, American English,
Joan Kanner
00:19:33 – 00:20:13
English. Please don’t even part of like our baking honesty, Jeff, you hit such a nerve because like I remember there’s a, there’s a fantastic group called Bakers for Bakers. They’re out of Canada, our neighbors to the north. It is a different language. So they had a really brilliant session uh about like really it’s marketing adjacent session right now as brilliant as this conversation, but so fairly brilliant, just an exchange rate in terms of brilliance between the US and there, which is fine. So they did the transcript and I just, I just wrote in the, in the chat and I was just like, will this be translated to American English? And like it was just such a moment. But it is true. There were, I mean, they
Michelle Bond
00:20:13 – 00:20:17
got joking obviously. But, yeah, it was pretty funny.
Jeff Bullas
00:20:17 – 00:20:52
Yeah. Well, I’m going to raise something. That was one of my secret tactics when I started my blog in 2009 is that I didn’t want the Americans to know I was actually Australian. Right. So, I was very naughty. I used American English spelling and when I bumped into people on the other side of the world, they’re going, oh my God, you’re not from America. And I went, no. So it was, that was my secret sauce to actually, it was my front line to break into the American market was to actually write in American English and it worked.
Joan Kanner
00:20:53 – 00:20:57
That’s the same thing that Keith Urban did. And I bet that Jeff knows Keith Urban.
Jeff Bullas
00:20:59 – 00:21:36
Keith and I neighbors. Yeah. But so you create this ambience, but you’ve done all the hard yards. You’ve, you know, basically knocked down doors by going to markets ST words. You, you basically really grafting on the ground, I suppose. Not like not an online business. You find what works and what doesn’t more. Um And then what did you discover also? What are the top bagels? And I’m sure smoked salmon cream cheese capers, bagel would be one of your top sellers. Would that be
Michelle Bond
00:21:36 – 00:21:39
correct? Yes, probably the top seller. We called it a locked up.
Jeff Bullas
00:21:40 – 00:21:42
Alright. You call
Michelle Bond
00:21:42 – 00:21:55
it a lock, it locks up. Ok. Cool. Yes, we cured our salmon in house too. So, I mean, it was people, we also sold it by the quarter pound and half pound and stuff like that.
Jeff Bullas
00:21:56 – 00:22:17
So basically you open your store, you found the right store, went looking for it to get, you want the right, you want to basically get the best ambience so that people would really enjoy the food front of house, back of house all visible. Uh But then something happened isn’t a thing called COVID. Is that
Joan Kanner
00:22:17 – 00:22:41
correct there? What happened before COVID? But I think before we go forward, I wanna make sure that you don’t lose too many listeners. I too enjoy capers. OK? But it’s a very controversial thing to add to a sandwich. Really so dear listener. At least here we are pro caper. Jeff is clearly pro caper doesn’t mean that we will not, we will not force you force them upon you. Should you order from us? Put that out there? OK.
Jeff Bullas
00:22:42 – 00:22:48
Right. I think I do love a good caper and I’m not talking the edible caper. I love a good caper,
Michelle Bond
00:22:48 – 00:22:49
a good adventure,
Joan Kanner
00:22:51 – 00:22:51
the
Michelle Bond
00:22:53 – 00:22:53
situation,
Joan Kanner
00:22:54 – 00:22:57
but don’t talk about the road show which happened before and after COVID.
Michelle Bond
00:22:58 – 00:23:47
Yeah, for sure. Um And I will say just on your question about toppings, I mean, we had the other thing is um there are several bagel shops who only focus also on like the cream cheese and the salmon and because that’s, that’s in some cases all you need. Um, but given where we grew up in Northern Jersey, we also wanted that, you know, those gooey eggs, egg and meat sandwiches. So we also made a mid sausage in house, both spicy and, and uh sweet, sweet and uh all kinds of egg sandwiches, all kind of make mixed cream cheeses with different flavors and, and with different combinations of egg and uh on with cream cheese and you know, arugula and all that kind of stuff. So, um we did fairly extensive menu and, and a lot of specials that we also did. Um So
Michelle Bond
00:23:48 – 00:24:34
yes, and then, um as you say, we, we kind of, we, we got to the point where we were um striving for all those early years, the brick and mortar and um despite it even being COVID, we, we were getting into a groove and wanted to resume something that we had begun on 2019 called The Bub Roadshow, which was uh already thinking about market expansion. We wanted to take our products and our brand really on the road and, and see if it resonated in places that we thought might be a good fit for the business. Um So we started that in 2019, took a little break in 20 and that uh picked it up in 2020 when we started in
Joan Kanner
00:24:34 – 00:25:14
Bozeman, Montana. So for the, for the 3 to 4 people we did because we were dealing with the elements like literally elevation. So for anyone who’s listening, who is a home baker who uses yeast dough or makes that for themselves, when I tell you that where we’re from, New Jersey is sea level, sometimes below sea level where we are in Maryland, not too much like above sea level to go from that. And with Michelle speaking experience and knowledge to be able to like make our recipe work when you’re so many 1000 ft up was also an accomplishment because you can’t just, you know, not kind of like make stuff where you are and ship it out, you’re going to make it locally to be fresh.
Jeff Bullas
00:25:15 – 00:25:19
So you, so you really started making these in Bozeman, Montana.
Michelle Bond
00:25:20 – 00:25:33
Well, we didn’t start them there, but that was the first stop on the road show. So, yeah, yeah. So we were a few years in and then decided to make it even harder, make it even
Jeff Bullas
00:25:33 – 00:25:39
harder. And you discovered the effects of elevation and lack of oxygen in terms of getting things to rise.
Michelle Bond
00:25:40 – 00:25:49
Yeah. Well, it’s kind of the opposite actually accelerate to rise. It accelerates, it accelerates the yeast production. So um yeah,
Joan Kanner
00:25:49 – 00:25:57
a box of brownie mix or a type of like baking mix. Look on the side. There should be something for higher elevation. I kid you not,
Jeff Bullas
00:25:58 – 00:26:05
I wouldn’t have crossed my mind. I was actually in Bozeman Montana in 2019. Was that when you were running your roadshow.
Joan Kanner
00:26:06 – 00:26:06
It was,
Michelle Bond
00:26:08 – 00:26:09
it was, it that
Joan Kanner
00:26:11 – 00:26:13
I love that.
Jeff Bullas
00:26:14 – 00:26:27
It was, it was, I was, I was actually, uh, I’ve flown to a, uh, influencer conference to a dude ranch in Montana and got picked up in a big black SUV with dark windows,
Michelle Bond
00:26:28 – 00:26:32
Bose Angeles. That’s what
Joan Kanner
00:26:32 – 00:26:35
it’s saying. Damn Michelle.
Michelle Bond
00:26:36 – 00:26:41
That’s no, I mean, that’s what was happening. Yeah. Yeah, that’s very
Jeff Bullas
00:26:41 – 00:26:47
cool. Ok. Right. Well, we did miss each other. So it’s a shame because I was, I was looking for a bagel at the time. So um
Michelle Bond
00:26:47 – 00:26:51
oh goodness, it wasn’t November, was it? Then? We would really feel
Jeff Bullas
00:26:51 – 00:27:05
that. Uh No, no, it wasn’t a bagel blizzard time. Um So, you know what? It’s really interesting that b will single lend themselves to a lot of alliteration. I think that’s really, I don’t know why, but it does.
Michelle Bond
00:27:05 – 00:27:20
Yeah, you’re right. A lot of things start with b I mean, even the business name bottoms up. I mean, we met. That’s more of like a cheers, you know, that’s the spirit in which there you go.
Jeff Bullas
00:27:20 – 00:27:30
Ok. So tell us more about the road show. Uh apart from um Bose Bose Vegas. No, Bose Angel Los
Michelle Bond
00:27:30 – 00:27:32
Angeles. Yeah, you got it. You got it.
Joan Kanner
00:27:34 – 00:28:14
Well, again, like we were still like operating stuff in Baltimore um from the pandemic, but things like lifted and people got their shots. We were vast and waxed and like ready to go out in the world right out in the world because, like, for us, you know, like, I don’t have like, um, you know, family, not money or, or where I went to, like, grad school doesn’t have like, a huge network. I knew that for us to be able to, like, prove us as a concept, we would probably have to do something that’s unconventional, but also, like, it made like, business sense, you know. So we ended up having going to enough places between 2021 and last September where I have a back of a tour shirt,
Joan Kanner
00:28:14 – 00:28:37
the front, like all like really cool design by a local artist and the back is nothing but cities that we have been to and produced and it’s always, it’s just like it’s a mess sometimes to be able to take something that’s so fucking hard, right? And then you end up doing it on the road in different kitchens, different places and try to recreate the same quality. So,
Jeff Bullas
00:28:37 – 00:28:40
so you would have had to go and find places that had kitchens,
Michelle Bond
00:28:41 – 00:28:43
right? We had a whole
Jeff Bullas
00:28:43 – 00:28:45
process have kitchens,
Joan Kanner
00:28:46 – 00:28:51
they only had dude ranches. What do you think? Dude ranches
Jeff Bullas
00:28:51 – 00:28:55
with horses screaming past
Michelle Bond
00:28:55 – 00:29:29
um They did have a kitchen. We actually the there we end. So we looked for also given my background in community development and Jones background in like in, in consume, customer um you know, really listening to what customer needs within the marketplace are. Um we really had this kind of partnership approach to everything that we do. And so when entering these different locations, it was really important for us to be additive and to not just be there kind of anonymously sell our product, take money and go on to the next place. Like we really spent a lot of time cultivating
Michelle Bond
00:29:29 – 00:29:51
um some sort of relationship trying to find the best fit. And so in Bozeman, we ended up at a pay, what you can restaurant that operated uh dinner service that didn’t have breakfast and lunch service. And so we rented some of their space and served as their back of the house, making food for breakfast and lunch for the, for the, you know, time that we were there. Um
Michelle Bond
00:29:51 – 00:30:24
We’ve had other places where we’ve gone into more of like a food hall that has a larger kitchen area at one end that they use for uh cooking classes or something. And we’ve rented that and been able to be a part of that community for the time that we’re there. Other times we go into um just kind of like a commissary kitchen, like the one that we started out in Baltimore. Um And, but we’re always trying to find in, in, in which case, then we’d have to find a partner to sell the bagels at, you know, to, to partner with on the retail side.
Joan Kanner
00:30:24 – 00:30:50
So you meet the best people. I mean, to your point about being at the bar. I mean, like to work next to chefs and staff in different places. You know, people just said, like, why can’t you just get a food truck and drive around the US? And like, because I number one, I wouldn’t have room because like when you need three recent refrigerators full just for the dough before you get any other stuff that goes on it, that’s not really advisable. But how would I like? You need to like, have the conflict and friction
Joan Kanner
00:30:50 – 00:31:13
and the information that you get by being embedded. And I said this like on our pod, like when you are amongst other people in a large kitchen, they’re doing your, you’re like doing, you’re doing your work, they’re doing their work. They are, they are watching you not saying a word. They want to see how you work or they come over to talk to you and I do love how when food is just like a show me, it’s show me first. Don’t tell me what you do, don’t tell me who you are.
Jeff Bullas
00:31:15 – 00:31:16
I can trust you next.
Michelle Bond
00:31:16 – 00:31:36
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Because as you say, it’s not a business, it’s so hard. Like it’s one of the challenges that we’ve had is that, you know, network wise, most of the people in our industry are so busy. We’ve got our heads down. We’re like cranking things out. We, we’re not, um, a consumer uh ecommerce business or not to say those, those people aren’t working very hard, but
Michelle Bond
00:31:36 – 00:32:13
there, there’s like all the stuff that’s within an e commerce business or within a service related business. Plus then the tangible product that you got to get out the door on a daily basis. And so it’s been tough to, you know, as we’ve tried to scale and things like that really find the avenues to, um, to really showcase what we can do because we’re just busy doing it. And in these situations, I think that’s very true. It’s like everyone is, is just passionate about what they’re doing and just trying to get it out. And so yeah, I’ll trust you later. Let me just while I’m working on my thing over here, I kind of have you at the corner of my eye and see what’s going on.
Jeff Bullas
00:32:15 – 00:32:47
So what, so obviously, there’s a lot of challenges with the food business you mentioned like elevations one which maybe didn’t cross your mind until you found it. It wasn’t quite not rising as you wanted it to. Um So what are the other challenges that you had and who helped you along the way? A bit? Like, was there any advice from master chefs, business mentors? But what were some of the problems and what were some of the mentors that helped you along the way?
Joan Kanner
00:32:48 – 00:33:23
I think mechanically a problem that people can probably very easily envision is just like sourcing when we were doing a month long event in Iowa. It was fantastic. Like um bit of like market data, great menu. We hired locally amazing staff but they were just the, the bits that we couldn’t get our arms around. Like how do you not have minced garlic in a volume that we need? So it was just trying to always chase that. I think that many people listening will just understand supply chain issues. You think that they’re done? You’re like, oh, well, they’re inflated but I’ll get it, but sometimes you still can’t get those items.
Michelle Bond
00:33:24 – 00:34:04
Yeah. And in that case, in that particular situation, um there were other food businesses who were happy to be like, oh, who are you working with? Oh, talk, you know, here’s a contact I have at this place. They, they can help you out or they, you know, explain to them what you’re trying to do. And so there’s that networking piece for, I think the on the ground specifics of just even here in Baltimore, like, you know, when seafood was at a premium during COVID and we obviously need salmon um working with different uh purveyors who were more locally based to try to meet those needs and them understanding what we were trying to do and really kind of going out of their way to help us. And I think
Joan Kanner
00:34:05 – 00:34:31
always peer to peer. I feel like our best guidance has always been peer to peer. There’s a lot of false idols out there and a lot of false mentors and, you know, and then the first like couple of years I feel like we fell prey to some of that because we were just nascent. I forgot, like, for some reason I walked into a kitchen and I forgot, like how many years I have worked, you know, and like, raised a certain level and had had my master. I just, I just forgot about that. So to your point, Michelle, the peer to peer has been critical.
Michelle Bond
00:34:32 – 00:35:09
Yeah. And, and um other, I think um certainly people who we’ve worked with an advisor capacity in terms of like, you know, some of our accounting work and in our small business development programs, um I was a part of the Goldman Sachs has a 10,000 small businesses program in the States. I think it’s, it might be global. I’m not sure. But um that’s basically a four month program of um a mixture of classes and mentoring and um advisement and things like that. And that was
Michelle Bond
00:35:09 – 00:35:39
really helpful, not only for the actual knowledge and, and um connections, but just for that network, obviously of other uh business owners and entrepreneurs because uh as you probably know, I mean, at the beginning especially it can be very isolating. You’re really trying to figure it all out. You’re so focused on your product and your customer that you don’t really have time to lift your head up and do the thing you need to be doing, which is, you know, connecting with other business owners who can help make that path a little easier. So,
Jeff Bullas
00:35:39 – 00:35:49
yeah, so the other thing that crossed my mind too is, uh, you’ve, you’ve engaged in a lot of hand to hand combat as in markets, perfect
Joan Kanner
00:35:49 – 00:36:27
way to put it pitch in or maybe I got into the one and only legitimate, probably fight I’ve ever had with someone. Uh, the church kitchen. It was, it was a basement. It was awesome place to work out of in Cohoes, New York. But once you know it, Jeff, they were also having like an a a meeting outside of it. And this one woman was fighting me about where she wanted to plug in her coffee pot because quote unquote addicts need their coffee. And I was just like who you telling lady? Because like, you know, I love it, but that was the only time you’ve had that friction going back to hand to hand combat and the burns, all the kitchen tattoos, we call them, the burns are currently covering up all those marks and cuts
Jeff Bullas
00:36:30 – 00:36:51
the hand to hand combat. I’m sort of physical which turns up when you do this is going to markets, touring. In other words, going all around the States like Bozeman in Montana and so on. And you’re really, you’re in the trenches. And so the question I have is how do you scale a bagel?
Michelle Bond
00:36:54 – 00:36:57
How do you scale a bagel, a bagel or the business?
Jeff Bullas
00:36:58 – 00:37:00
How do you scale a bagel business? I suppose it’s
Joan Kanner
00:37:02 – 00:37:09
the, you have the D the D on it.
Jeff Bullas
00:37:11 – 00:37:40
So yeah, I just want to know because you ladies are getting your hands dirty, literally not dirty but doughy. Let’s, let’s call it, you’re getting your hands, right? And uh and then on top of that, then how do you scale a bagel business when it’s a bricks and mortar store? Of course, there’s all different business models for that such as Franchising. So how are you going with the scaling side of things so that you get your hands out of the dough and um on the road?
Michelle Bond
00:37:42 – 00:38:12
Yeah, it’s really, um it’s tough, it’s really dependent on labor, it’s very high, um you know, very high labor costs. And um that’s what made it made it particularly tough. Um not so much during COVID, but post COVID when you were having, you know, that all the COVID fall out and um the, the whole workforce kind of changing itself up and things like that. Um You know, so our focus has always been to get a tight operation and then,
Michelle Bond
00:38:12 – 00:38:42
yeah, and then, you know, we’ve been focused on trying to raise funds um based on, you know, the track record that we have in terms of knowing our customer and where the, how the product has been tested in different places and things like that. Um in order to, to make that leap. But it’s tough. I mean, unless you’re going a franchise model or you have an influx of, of capital, um which post COVID in the food world, you know, is less and less unless you are a, a known entity. Um
Michelle Bond
00:38:42 – 00:39:02
So those are some of the things that, that, I mean, we’re continuing to work through. I mean, the main thing for us is we’re really trying to own the property where we produce because as we know that that builds wealth and that creates a stable line item where we can at least get out of the day to day and, and be on to the next thing.
Jeff Bullas
00:39:03 – 00:39:21
So, so the what’s the uh so basically the restaurants is like the number of seats that you can do or uh how, how big is a rest restaurant you’re in, how many seats and how many table turns, I suppose is that a term you even use in a bagel?
Joan Kanner
00:39:21 – 00:39:58
Right? And, and how do you do that? I mean, that’s, I think you’re getting a point which I think is critical and for us, like we’ve always seen value in like repeat customers and also how much every single order has been and through a few different streams, one is catering uh one is direct to consumer. Um and then, um and then delivery that’s been like some of our three main lines. So for us looking at every time like each like who people are coming back, how frequently is it? And what is like the spend per time they come in and like either like order online or come in and get something or ask for catering for their large event.
Michelle Bond
00:39:58 – 00:40:22
And with a product like ours, it’s been important to increase those um transaction. You know, the, the, the, the pull from each transaction because obviously if people are just buying bagels, you’re not, you’re not, you know, you want them to buy the coffee, you want them to add the kombucha, you want them to have a sandwich and take half a dozen home. Oh, and you’re taking half a dozen, make sure you take some cream cheese and some, you know, so
Joan Kanner
00:40:22 – 00:40:53
the upselling is pretty critical and it’s also something where people are perfectly fine, not eating that food that you’ve just made where you are. So if you’re going to be doing um a shop, just keep in mind that like it’s very reasonable culturally for people to take a half dozen home and eat, it doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with it. It’s just such a mutable or changeable um thing to enjoy in different ways and so customizable that people may not want to be, they may grab on sandwich to Michelle’s point. But it’s, you don’t expect to like have people like have a full platter of food every time they come.
Jeff Bullas
00:40:54 – 00:41:27
Yeah. So because, you know, I’m not going to use the example of mcdonald’s, which is a terrible example, but the reality is with mcdonald’s, it doesn’t sell food, it sells systems. In other words, the other thing I’ve heard was like, Steven Spielberg said, I think it was him that said, it said, not only do I love what you’re doing, got to fall in love with the process of what you’re doing. Um So for him making a movie, he enjoys the whole process from ideation right through to production and marketing. So because
Jeff Bullas
00:41:28 – 00:41:56
a lot of entrepreneurs certainly get stuck in this. I’ve got a great idea but then they hate systems and processes and attention to detail, which but then you can hire those people. They’re called accountants quite often and you’ve got to love them. One of those accountants is my brother. So I’ve learned to love accountants. But the reality is, is one big challenge been creating good systems and processes to produce a quality product.
Joan Kanner
00:41:57 – 00:42:29
Yeah, I think replicable is the most critical thing. I think one thing that’s been a barrier to people’s thinking, I think in terms of investment is that people assume that good bagels can only happen in New Jersey rhyme from New York or Connecticut. And why can you produce all these other baked goods? Every other part of the US and the world consistently delicious. Like what? There’s just such a barrier to thinking where I think with the roadshow and are just testing. So we proven things are replicable using the water. I like where terroir is for like water,
Joan Kanner
00:42:30 – 00:42:44
like aguire. I don’t know that. Like you’re able to produce something delicious no matter where you are. So, it’s between that um in the past like couple years you’ve done a great job by getting our systems together, by getting a consultant to your point, like an operations consultant to help us refine that.
Michelle Bond
00:42:44 – 00:43:10
Right. But it’s integral because, you know, if it’s not the water, it’s the process, right? And it’s, it’s a painstaking process. And so it needs to be both a labor of love, but also able to train people on it and to mechanize where you can and to be able to um you know, scale even from just our kitchen to a church kitchen to a full blown, you know, shop. But
Jeff Bullas
00:43:11 – 00:43:56
so it’s, it’s obvious to me that uh you’ve, you have a real passion for the food industry, uh a passion for bagels. And I suppose for me, there’s two words that I’ve been playing with recently, which is you ask someone, what are they curious about? And I mentioned 10 things they’re curious about, right? And then, but then the big question is what compels you, what drives you, where does that come from? So where do you think your drive and what compels you to do this bagel business is because it’s almost a sense of burning fire that like, you know, sits within each, both of you? Where does that burning passion come from? And does it, has it surprised you
Michelle Bond
00:43:58 – 00:43:59
most? A great question?
Joan Kanner
00:43:59 – 00:44:28
I’m trying to remember Robert Downey Junior’s acceptance speech and he just talked about like his shitty childhood. And I think so, yeah, I feel like I’ve never really had comfort or security and I just really had to push myself to do uncomfortable things every week, not have the support driving forward. So I think there’s something to be said about, you know, what hunger means in terms of getting like your needs met and how that’s very different than the person who’s like has been stated.
Joan Kanner
00:44:28 – 00:44:48
I mean, it might be better off than I was when I was a kid. Yeah, but I still um you know, like I will rail against nepo kids. I, I have a problem with like people who are not mindful of like where they came from and I feel like the, the fire in me is that, but then also knowing that people deserve better products. That’s the, that’s the, that’s the two flames for me. OK.
Michelle Bond
00:44:49 – 00:45:35
Yeah. And for me, it’s about um creating space which I know is a, is a, is a, is a term that’s used a lot, especially now as we’re trying to all be more inclusive and conscious of bringing people into the fold of things. Um But, you know, my mindset is a community development one and it’s, it’s really about creating something that you know, I always go back to this and it sounds so cliche, but I can remember being a kid in Northern New Jersey and going into a bagel shop that has a counter and seeing someone in a business suit, someone in a construction hat, someone in a nursing scrubs. So, you know, and, and to me that idea of having a space where,
Michelle Bond
00:45:36 – 00:46:01
um, people, it doesn’t matter who you are, it doesn’t matter what you do, you’re all eating some version of the same thing that you can customize and have the way that you want it. Um But that to me is the driving force because when, when, when times get really hard to get the feedback of how much people like the product is one thing but to see them in line talking to each other, people who may not otherwise ever have a reason to
Michelle Bond
00:46:01 – 00:46:28
um is the part that really fires me up and, and that’s something that it goes to be like being seen and like, you know, making people feel like more than a transaction, but it’s really not even about my immediate connection with them. If I can know that the, that the space and the brand that we’ve created has a place for you to accidentally bump into somebody, like sitting at the bar that you will have a memory with no matter how big or small. That’s, that’s the piece for me.
Jeff Bullas
00:46:29 – 00:46:33
In other words, seeing community emerge from this environment. Is that correct?
Joan Kanner
00:46:34 – 00:46:38
Yeah. Yeah. Setting the table, Michelle if you will and
Jeff Bullas
00:46:38 – 00:46:40
we could call that the bagel bond.
Joan Kanner
00:46:40 – 00:46:57
Sure, we could. Oh my God. All this alliteration is a bit much. I want to apologize like about probably an hour and a half ago. It’s not that long. I believe Michelle referred to a lettuce as arugula just for your other audience members. Rocket. I just want to say that out loud.
Jeff Bullas
00:47:00 – 00:47:05
Yeah, I wouldn’t have got the first but I do get the uh the
Joan Kanner
00:47:07 – 00:47:08
make sure.
Jeff Bullas
00:47:08 – 00:47:10
Yeah. So um
Jeff Bullas
00:47:12 – 00:47:51
one question I have is uh and it’s the dream of many successful restaurants, cafes and bagel, bagel shop owners is to get a line out the front that goes like 50 people lining up to get in to fight over bagels because it’s the best bagel shop in the country. Have you achieved that? Have you got a big line that goes out the door and people walk by and go my God. I’ve got to go there because uh there’s, it must be popular. It must be great food. Has that happened occasionally or is that a goal? Uh
Michelle Bond
00:47:51 – 00:47:56
It has happened many times and in many places um I hate
Joan Kanner
00:47:56 – 00:48:04
waiting in line. Fuck up. I’m telling the situation up something I would never stand in this. Why I’m making for people better take a time zone, work
Michelle Bond
00:48:04 – 00:48:47
faster. Yeah, I mean, from our first farmers market to many a time at the shop to every location we’ve been on the road. There’s always been that snaking line. Um It’s pretty amazing and, and we’ve always been the people to be not want to capture that because we, we’ve always been like, oh, yeah, look at that guy standing outside taking pictures of the line when he should be back there making food, you know, but there maybe someday we’ll achieve the balance of, you know, being able, we usually take a quick photo before we open when everyone’s chomping at the bit to have the doors open just so we can capture it. Um And that’s also with the pop up, you know, with the pop up uh model, especially on the road. There is that demand.
Jeff Bullas
00:48:48 – 00:49:05
Yeah, which is great. Fantastic. Look, I’m, I think there’s the QE lovers and there’s the cue haters, right? So, um and I, I gave up snow skiing because I didn’t want to queue up. It was too big a line. I gave up snow skiing because I had queues.
Joan Kanner
00:49:06 – 00:49:11
I think that get into the deep stuff. There’s a whole lot that we
Jeff Bullas
00:49:11 – 00:49:14
could get into the philosophy of queues and lines, right? So,
Joan Kanner
00:49:15 – 00:49:27
and some false and sometimes people work a little slow or make less food or do whatever to make their lines. I’m not, I’m not conspiratorial. I’m just saying you can, you can falsify certain things to make that happen. People I’m on to you,
Jeff Bullas
00:49:28 – 00:50:11
you can, and that’s and I realize that you are, you’re obviously cooking like mad mice trying to create the right bagel for everyone. Not because you’re actually grab at making them or slope making them. That’s the reason knock the lines going out the door. Was it because uh there’s this high demand for your bagels, which is um I was expecting the answer to be that you were shoe maker in a really nice way for bagels, which is lovely, but I wouldn’t line up because I looked at people that line up for this, the best bread in the world, right? Shops and there’s one of those nearby here and, and going q sorry, I’m not going, I get
Michelle Bond
00:50:11 – 00:50:15
it. I get it for sure. Yeah, it’s
Jeff Bullas
00:50:15 – 00:50:59
um but um I is there any tips you would give to, you know, people in the food industry or wanna be entrepreneurs or are entrepreneurs? What are some of the top things you’ve learned as bagel producers and a bagel shop owner. What? And a food, foodie players, food lovers. What are some of the, is there a few tips you could share with the audience that you think uh are absolutely key to uh being successful and I know what a few of those are for me, it’s like you obviously have persistence. Uh So what are some of the top tips you’d share with people to succeed at what you do and, and business
Joan Kanner
00:51:00 – 00:51:38
consistency for sure in terms of product? And I would just say like when it comes to getting guidance, I feel like culturally people go to like the, what’s that, Gary Vander Chok or like the people who have like top of the mountain, they’ve had like 18 X returns unicorn founders and like star chef. Like, you know, so and so and so and so maybe talk to the person who is just like one level above where you are or who someone who’s recently achieved like a level pass what you have done, they will have a shit ton more in common with you. They may be busy and hard to get a hold of, but they’re going to have a lot more practical experience to be able to share with you.
Michelle Bond
00:51:39 – 00:52:05
Yeah. And one of the reasons I think we alluded to it if I can. So we just started um and sort of this uh interim transitional phase of the business, we started a podcast called Proofing Stage um in this idea of, of this space where you are, you know, practicing kind of equal parts diligence and patience as an entrepreneur, trying to work the thing to get the best, the best result. But also, um
Michelle Bond
00:52:06 – 00:52:44
you know, trying to, to make smart decisions and um not be as much in the weeds and kind of lift your head up and, and be more strategic and um so aligned with that, I would say to recognize that it’s a long game. I think, you know, to me, I feel like that’s my biggest thing. I wish I realized sooner because you can get really caught up. Especially as a start up in hustle, hustle hustle, bring it, take advantage and it, and it’s, and it’s exciting, you know. Um, we both came from careers where we were mostly salaried, which was fine and stable. But then to go to, um,
Michelle Bond
00:52:44 – 00:53:10
a job where, oh, I can take another, I can take on another event I can take on, I can keep, I can keep bringing stuff in the door. Um, it has a bit of addictive quality to it and especially when you’re scrapping and you’re trying to just kind of get your head above water, especially in the beginning. It’s really easy to fall into that mentality. Um, but then you don’t really take the time early on to put some stuff in place that
Michelle Bond
00:53:10 – 00:53:42
what I think help in specifically as you’re talking about those systems and things like that. We got them to a certain level that was kind of good enough. But we, we, I think waited a bit longer than, um, you know, I would have in retrospect to, to, to really put the focus on those things. And I think also in terms of burnout, it’s very easy to, um, you, you care about what you’re doing, you’re passionate about it. You love your customers, you like making your product, but it’s very easy to, um, if you’re not thinking about it as a long term, you know,
Michelle Bond
00:53:43 – 00:54:04
traction will be there if you, you have a good project and you’ve built that, that following and you communicate with people and you, you know, um, respect them. You, you can slowly and steadily build it. But, um, I feel like a lot of the messaging that we get doesn’t necessarily say that especially when you’re just starting out.
Jeff Bullas
00:54:05 – 00:54:13
So what’s the future for you guys in terms of uh you know, bubs, what’s where do you see taking it and where would you like to take it?
Joan Kanner
00:54:14 – 00:54:35
Oh, it’s been a tough road since the fall like um getting our pitch deck out. Um Shout out to the people of screa for helping us work on um our wonderful pitch deck and also shout out to uh I won’t say the name though, but getting like our video pitches out. It’s really been hard to like um I, I just, I wish for us to be able to push back against these,
Joan Kanner
00:54:36 – 00:55:16
these questions. Would you call them Michelle? The questions have for people have all these prevention questions, you know what I mean? Like uh we’ll just begin to talk to potential investors. We need that for property acquisition and for scaling at this point, people who have knowledge but also capital, I can see our many years of books and go like, yeah, I would like to like bet on this horse but to come to a meeting with someone, um, even like, at an angel level and then have them, uh, push back and say like, oh, Joan, you just told me that you did an event for the Writers School Association and you guys were really struck by, you know, people’s, um, you know, lack of food security. Have you thought about making Bob a nonprofit?
Joan Kanner
00:55:17 – 00:55:46
I like what, sorry, they were pushing back. WG A is all about people getting like, equal, like good, good fair wages or I’ll just talk about generally how it’s important for us to make sure there’s like a good deal of ad a compliance with any shop that we have because they even on a good day, I can slip and fall in the kitchen, I can eat crutches the next day and so be helpful but not as helpful between that and caring about, uh, because we’re not from food, right? Not bringing someone into the walking and yelling at them,
Joan Kanner
00:55:46 – 00:56:26
not having that traditional very militaristic structure of making a, a restaurant or bakery happen. And to have that the prevention question again, coming back with people wanting us to be a nonprofit and I’m just like, we’re not going to be hiring people who are tone deaf, uh, ex arsonists who now learn how to bake. Like that’s not how I want to run a business. So it’s, I think if I for your questions, I just want to see past that point where people can just see us for something that would be a great, you know, CPG product line, bagels, locks, cream cheese, you know, like, like just see past what we’re doing here, envision somebody else and know that there’s such a demand for what we’re making.
Jeff Bullas
00:56:29 – 00:56:55
So it’s, it is a challenge, isn’t it? And I think the food industry is, it’s got so many moving parts that’s, you know, II I look at what you guys are doing and I’m going, oh my God, this is the last thing I want to do, right? Um And that’s absolutely fine. That’s why the world is such a lovely place and a gorgeous place because we’ve all got different motivations and drives and skills and talents and what we love and hate. And uh
Jeff Bullas
00:56:56 – 00:57:39
that means we end up producing a whole range of beautiful products called things like bagels. And I think it’s fantastic and I had friends of mine are going, oh my dream is to open a coffee shop. Oh my God. I said that sounds like a nightmare to me, but that’s fine. And that’s what’s lovely about our diversity as humans and what’s not to love about that. Otherwise, we’d all be just having the same ice cream and it’s called Vanilla and it’d be a bit boring frankly. So I’m going to ask you one more question. Um which I ask, I’ll ask everyone on the show now. It’s, what would you do? For free. If you had all the money in the world that brings you deep joy.
Jeff Bullas
00:57:40 – 00:57:51
And, I mean, by that, not frivolous but really deep joy. What just makes you glow inside once you’ve done once you’ve done it or while you’re doing it.
Joan Kanner
00:57:52 – 00:58:04
Love it. Wow. Creative writing. I’d be ready for, like, probably television or, you know, or marketing other people’s businesses. That’s a righteously good question. Like, if you have a fever dream.
Michelle Bond
00:58:04 – 00:58:06
Yeah, you’d be writing skits.
Joan Kanner
00:58:06 – 00:58:08
You’d be writing skits and parodies.
Michelle Bond
00:58:09 – 00:58:12
Working for Saturday Night Live. I
Jeff Bullas
00:58:13 – 00:58:30
get that. I’ve been to Chicago and been to the Comedy store, I think, and I watched a, basically the skit where it’s random. They just improv improvisation.
Joan Kanner
00:58:32 – 00:58:33
Right.
Jeff Bullas
00:58:34 – 00:58:40
Um I, I think that will be fun. In fact, what we’ve been doing for the last hour has essentially been improv that. Right. That’s right.
Michelle Bond
00:58:40 – 00:58:42
That’s right. Yes and
Joan Kanner
00:58:42 – 00:58:45
yes. And I believe that you, you say Michelle,
Jeff Bullas
00:58:45 – 00:58:49
right? So Michelle your answer, please. Thank you.
Michelle Bond
00:58:49 – 00:59:00
Yeah, I don’t, I don’t have a, a, well, I mean, honestly, I, it just sounds, it sounds staged but I think I would be doing, um,
Michelle Bond
00:59:02 – 00:59:53
especially if, you know, money were not the object. Um I think I would have a spot. I think I would make our products by hand. I think I would interact with our customers and have, you know, it be enough and not have to feel like I need to work 16 hours to make enough to make money on them the next day. You know what I mean? That type of thing. But I think still this, um this way of kind of t tangibly um making something that people enjoy that creates something outside of me. Um, and, and really like living, living that brand. Um, and living that experience, I think there’s uh whatever I do needs to have some sort of kinetic element and that’s what I love about food. It’s what I didn’t like about,
Michelle Bond
00:59:53 – 00:59:56
my prior career, although I loved a lot of what I did.
Jeff Bullas
00:59:56 – 01:00:13
Um and something about being a small business owner, bringing all these prior skills together. So if you took away the part that makes it the most challenging, which is the finances, I think I might just be doing the same thing.
Jeff Bullas
01:00:13 – 01:00:34
Great. Thank you ladies for your answers. They’re yours and they’re beautiful. And I think it comes to the sense that I think making a difference by creating and I think that’s what you’re both doing and that’s to be applauded and celebrated every day.
Michelle Bond
01:00:34 – 01:00:41
Thank you for that reflection, how kind and also we’re pro caper and I’m glad that you’re pro caper as well. I appreciate that about you.
Jeff Bullas
01:00:41 – 01:01:12
I’m a caper that loves capers. There you go. So, thank you ladies. It’s been an absolute joy. I’ve had a blast and um what a great way to start my day here in Sydney and uh it’s just gone 920 here. And um it’s been, it’s been a joy. Uh This brings me joy, these conversations and um seeing, hearing your story, um your experiences, your expertise, your passion that shines through. Thank you very much.
Michelle Bond
01:01:13 – 01:01:14
Yeah. Thank you.
Joan Kanner
01:01:15 – 01:01:21
Thank you for having us. Yeah, we’re wrapping up our work day here, but um, really appreciate it. It’s a pleasure to meet and chat.
Joan Kanner
01:01:21 – 01:01:24
Yeah, thank you very much.
Jeff Bullas
01:01:24 – 01:01:25
All right. Cheers.