Win At Business And Life In An AI World

The Surprising Comeback of Direct Mail & How AI Makes It Better (Episode 247)

Wilson Zehr is an experienced technology entrepreneur and academic.

As the Founder of Cendix (Zairmail), a company streamlining the process of sending physical mail for business development, Wilson brings a unique perspective to direct mail marketing in today’s digital age. (While some might see it as outdated, it definitely still does work!)

Throughout his career, he’s had the opportunity to launch a total of 6 tech startups and raise $60 million in venture capital, while maintaining a strong belief in the power of direct mail for customer engagement.

What you will learn

  • How direct mail is cutting through digital clutter and becoming a powerful tool in modern marketing.
  • Why combining digital automation with physical mail can make marketing faster, easier, and more effective.
  • How AI is being used to improve the speed, accuracy, and targeting of direct mail campaigns.
  • Why AI still struggles to replicate human creativity and the emotional impact of storytelling.
  • The biggest lessons from launching six startups, including how past actions shape future opportunities.

Transcript

Jeff Bullas

00:00:06 – 00:00:38

Hi, everyone and welcome to the Jeff Bullas show. Today I  have with me Wilson Zehr. Now an experienced technology entrepreneur and academic.

As the Founder of Cendix (Zairmail), a company streamlining the process of sending physical mail for business development, Wilson brings a unique perspective to direct mail marketing in today’s digital age. (While some might see it as outdated, it definitely still does work!)

Throughout his career, he’s had the opportunity to launch a total of 6 tech startups and raise $60 million in venture capital, while maintaining a strong belief in the power of direct mail for customer engagement.

Jeff Bullas

00:00:39 – 00:01:03

So Wilson, uh welcome to the show. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:01:04 – 00:01:09

Thank you. Thank you for having me, Jeff. Um, I appreciate the opportunity for sure. 

Jeff Bullas

00:01:09 – 00:01:10

So 

Jeff Bullas

00:01:13 – 00:01:53

you’ve done more degrees than most people do in six lifetimes, which is just amazing. So obviously, you must be curious and also just love learning. So, um, but you did a computer and now you’re, do you’re doing this direct mail, in other words, things that arrive in a letter box, right. Yeah. So I’m gonna go straight to that actually. What made you start, Zail? Um, because I’m, this is the most curious thing. I am in a digital age. You’re doing physical, not email, physical mail directed to people’s letterboxes. What inspired that? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:01:56 – 00:02:12

Yeah, great question. Um I’m, I’m a little uh perplexed by that myself some days anyway, that when um we worked on a couple of start ups. Um Well, the fir first um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:02:15 – 00:02:48

The first start up we did on my own was something called E fusion. It was jointly funded by Microsoft Intel, France, Telecom and Telecom, Italia. And what we’re doing is looking at voice over IP applications, you know, some of the technology we worked on is still in use today and things like Skype. Um So that, but it was at, at that point in time, you know, when the internet was first, you know, getting traction and exploding and the internet, by the way, it’s been around for a long time, it’s just the browser and stuff was something new allowed us to connect regular users to the internet. 

Jeff Bullas

00:02:48 – 00:02:50

It democratized the internet, didn’t it? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:02:50 – 00:03:38

Yes, it did. Yeah. And it really, I mean, people use the internet in different ways too in one way, it’s a big communications pipe in another way, it’s a data store. In another way. It’s a way to, you know, access information or, or to, to not access information but to complete transactions. Right. So um it does lots of different things depending on how you, how you link it together. But you know, the browser and html really made that all possible. I mean, I was using the internet in the late eighties to send email from a software company I worked at called Verdict. I did the news feed in the Northwest in the Pacific Northwest in that period of time. So it was available in the university community. It just wasn’t available to most consumers. 

Jeff Bullas

00:03:38 – 00:03:54

Yes. Uh Yeah. And that’s, that was intriguing. So for me, uh looking at uh the internet was used but from about the 19 seventies, I think right through to the 19 nineties, it certainly pretty well for the academic community. In other words, it was an academic product 

 Wilson Zehr

00:03:55 – 00:04:19

actually. Yeah, actually the internet was a DARPA project. It started as a military research project. Um And the whole idea was to create a network that had no single point of failure because when, you know, when you’re attacked by an enemy, you know, traditional theory is that you want to take out, you know, you want to take out communication, you wanna take out supplies and you want to take out power, you know, and, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:04:19 – 00:04:52

and coming up with a AAA network that had no single point of failure seemed like a very good way to make sure that the country itself was more resilient. So they started out building a network among major universities here in the United States, both the east coast and west coast and they had to create, um, some different devices to do that. The original computers weren’t capable of doing that, weren’t, weren’t capable of talking to each other at all. It’s a company called BBN that made those first switches. Actually, it’s a really interesting story. There’s a great um um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:04:53 – 00:05:37

There’s a great video on it on the history channel where they talk about, you know, they talk about all the enabling technologies. So, the switches, BBN switches, the creation of TCP/IP, um Ethernet, they had to invent Ethernet to transmit signals. And then, of course, all the servers had to, you know, have to become a little more intelligent, a little more powerful and then the endpoints, right? There’s a lot of um changes required on the PC side too or the personal side. And I’m, I’ve got a really great graphic where I break it down at a level. So we look over time and how these um how they feed into each other. The cool thing about um um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:05:38 – 00:06:01

The diffusion of technology innovation is that it tends to layer on itself over time, you know, one layer after another layer after another labor and the layer before enabling the next. Um So it’s really interesting how these new, each new technology inspires a whole, you know, a whole wave of, of even newer technology that people build on. 

Jeff Bullas

00:06:02 – 00:06:13

OK. So let’s get back to the original question, why are we using old analog technology called direct mail? And that’s what I’m really curious about. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:06:13 – 00:06:43

All right. So, so I mean, to go back to where we started, there was this um there was this recognition at that point for me that there was something called convergence, right? So we had all of this legacy, all of these legacy systems that were in existence that were doing jobs. But now we have the internet and people are counting on the internet to do certain kinds of work. And there was a huge opportunity to, to, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:06:43 – 00:07:11

to bring convergence between those systems to somehow connect legacy systems with the internet, you know, internet applications and internet services that people were using. So in effusion, we did voice over IP and we basically, we connected the internet to the public telephone number, the old public telephone numbers. So we’re dealing with old switches, old analog switches and stuff and trying to figure out how to turn that into digital voice. It’s kind of interesting. Um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:07:11 – 00:07:50

And so there is really um focused on convergence between electronic media and everything starts out electronically today. If you’re doing a letter or a bill or anything. I mean, it doesn’t start out as a piece of paper anymore. It starts out as a digital file and, and if you have to mail that to somebody, how does that work? And so we’ve created this process that allows you to submit a document, submit a list and we would um we route it electronically to play near where it needs to go and then produce it and mail it. Um So it’s, it’s, it’s faster, it’s easier, it’s better for the planet. Um And it just makes sense within the context we work in today, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:07:51 – 00:08:35

but it’s not the only um opportunity like that. I mean, we, our first um Zee Mail started out in the Draper Fisher portfolio. Um DFJ is a tier one California VC and they also were the guys who did, um you know, they funded Skype, they did um Hotmail, they did, which was free email. Remember that platform, they did Efax, which was, you know, convergence free faxes, they did homestead, just free websites. So there’s a whole series of services like that in the portfolio and we just fit pretty well with that offering. Um But XML, the, the concept of XML um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:08:36 – 00:09:05

been around for a while, I mean, we started, the first company was first started long ago. Um It’s been sold a couple of times, we got it back. Um And, and that’s a longer story that I’d be happy to share some time. Um But you know, we brought it up when our new technology started up and orders just kept coming in. The demand is there for the product that we offer. And the interesting thing about what we do or the way we approach what we do 

 Wilson Zehr

00:09:05 – 00:09:48

as most people in our space are commercial printers. And so they’re very focused on the production side of things, which is good. I mean, we have partners like that in our network too, but we are software and technology companies and we always have them. So that’s the way we look at the problem just as we did with E Fusion, looking at voice over IP. Right. So we’re looking at how do we, how do we use technology to shape the kind of applications we can deliver? So we have an application called flights where we’ll take a big, you know, a million records and we have documents and schedules and we’ll automatically slice it up, send it out, you know, track, track, um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:09:49 – 00:10:06

you know, track the progress of the mail and, and alert people when it’s been delivered. And that happens. Lights up 24 by seven. You know, we can just start that up and it goes, we do, you know, we can take a single job, break it up and spread it across an entire network across the United States. We can do, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:10:06 – 00:10:42

we’ve got a new one, a new application that’s really kind of cool. It’s um, it’s what we call Speedy and anybody who wants to can download it, Speedy is free to download. It’s at www dot zer mail.com/speedy. And what it is is a desktop application. You download it, it puts an icon on your desktop. You create a letter, even if it’s just one letter, you drop it on the icon, you, it says where do you want to send it? You put in an address or select an address from your, you know, from your address book and out it goes, it turns into a letter and gets delivered in the mail, 

Jeff Bullas

00:10:43 – 00:11:15

right? Ok. So tell us a bit about how you actually execute a digital to. Do you have a company that actually takes a digital signal and then actually prints a letter and then puts it. We do and then put a stamp on it. So I’m trying to understand, but we’ve got the concept. I’m just wondering, take me through what actually happens physically because we’re talking about physical delivery and why would you do it? And what are the results you’re getting? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:11:16 – 00:12:00

Yeah. So we have a network of production partners today and these are commercial printers and also do mail. We have partners today and, you know, in Oregon, um two locations in California in Dallas, um Maryland, you know, Baltimore, Maryland and then Iowa. Um and we’re always looking at tuning the network change in the network. Um But the basic idea is that uh customers will come to the site, they upload a document, they upload their list. Um They see a preview in real time of what’s gonna be produced and they like what they see, they push the button and they’re, they’re in the mail tomorrow the next day. So it really literally takes 60 seconds to, um launch a campaign. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:12:00 – 00:12:28

We’re looking across the network, we see what is being produced, you know, what, what facilities have the ability to produce that file or that job. And so it could be a postcard or a letter or self mailer snap pack or, you know, any number of things could be black and white or color. So we’re looking across the network and seeing who has the ability to print something like that. Um And then where’s the most effective place to print it? So for you, so for example, you would say, well, maybe this letter is going to, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:12:29 – 00:13:08

you know, in DC. So maybe it makes more sense to print it in Baltimore. Well, but if it’s three o’clock in the afternoon here on the west coast, that doesn’t make more sense because they’re not gonna print it today. But if I started in Sacramento, I could print it there and I’d already be, you know, in the mail before the other guys even started on it. So we have, we, we, you know, use some heuristics like that to figure out the best space to produce and mail. We also provide tracking on every piece of mail so we can tell how it flows through the network and we can tell when it’s delivered and alert, you know, alert the sender to deliver the mail, sending direct mail. You like that is, is um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:13:09 – 00:13:37

It’s a new approach to the problem. It’s a lot more efficient, a lot more cost effective, a lot faster. I mean, it used to be if you submitted a direct mail to a commercial printer, first of all, unless it was big enough, unless it was a couple of 1000 pieces, nobody would even look at it because nobody wanted to deal with it. Um But even if they did, you’re talking 7 to 10 days just to get in the mail and I don’t have any jobs that take 7 to 10 days. I mean, we’re sending out very large jobs tomorrow and the next day. I mean, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:13:38 – 00:14:08

um and the way we do that is with automation, we, we, we, we’re not touching any of those files in that way. I mean, we’re using technology to transform them into print ready files. They can be printed, inserted, you know, use all the inserting equipment. We put all the marks on them and stuff to make the equipment work. Um So it’s produced and, and mailed very efficiently and from, from the standpoint of our partners, if we’re handling 

 Wilson Zehr

00:14:08 – 00:14:30

the sales and the customer service and the automation and all they have to do is produce mail, then it makes life a lot easier for them too. So, they’re not worried if it’s 2000 pieces because the way I submit everything they get is gonna be in larger volume and it’s going to be formatted correctly to work. Um Exactly the way their facility needs to. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:14:31 – 00:15:00

And historically doing a piece, something like I talked about with Speedy with one piece of mail, is just impossible unless you want to do it at home. Um But in our case, we will batch that up with a bunch of other letters. You know, we laid out all the marks and stuff, made a proper print worthy file and we’ll produce that through a commercial production facility. So it’s, you know, it’s better quality, it’s faster, it’s easier, it’s trackable. Um And I, I think it’s better for the environment. It’s just a win for everybody. Right. 

Jeff Bullas

00:15:01 – 00:15:32

So I’ve got a few questions. So number one, here’s your ideal customer profile, in other words. And then what sort of mailing are you doing? And then the third question is, what sort of results are you seeing? Because the problem we have with digital overload and email is that it goes to trash, it goes to spam. Uh open rates have just gone through the floor. Um So here’s your ideal customer profile. Let’s deal with that first. Who’s, who is your target market that you’re providing the service for? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:15:32 – 00:16:23

Ok. So, uh, so I think there’s a couple of different answers. So, um, there always is in me for a second. I mean, because there’s lots of people who do mail. I mean, historically, we’ve done a lot, a lot of work with realtors, mortgage brokers, um, independent insurance agents, but you can, you can see other people, you know, doing pest control, pool cleaners, landscapers. I mean, all kinds of small businesses, especially if they’ve got a targeted market to hit. Um, this turns out to be a very effective tool that says if I’m looking at our business overall, who are our ideal customers, our ideal customers. We, we, we offer services to all of those customers. And because of automation, as I mentioned before, it doesn’t matter if it’s just 500 pieces, we’ll offer that service to everybody. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:16:23 – 00:17:01

But our ideal customer is somebody who is using the mail in a way that is strategic to their business and they’re gonna send jobs of 20,000 to 50,000 pieces 2 to 3 times a week that profiles fits debt collection, it fits call centers, it fits lots of different applications that you know, that um that might not be as familiar as America as general, but there are people doing that and still do a lot of, we still do a lot of first class mail. I uh you know, and when you think about mail, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:17:01 – 00:17:25

um, they are actually, actually there’s a number of classes of mail but the two most common are first class and standard, a standard A used to be what we would call in the old days junk mail or bulk mail. Right. And ty, typically standard A was associated with advertising mail. So if I’m getting something from Visa or Mastercard or somebody like that, somebody is sending millions of pieces of mail. I’m, uh, you know, I’m using book mail. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:17:26 – 00:18:14

The reason for that is that the bulk of the cost in direct mail is about 70% of the cost. And in general, standard A is gonna be about, you know, 20 cents cheaper. So there’s a delta. So if you’re mailing millions of pieces of mail, that makes a big difference. And so the people would tend to focus on that if you’re doing smaller mailings, if you, if you like the, you know, the landscape or the real estate or whoever, then the difference between, you know, the, the savings is, is a not as large, but b you’re gonna get a better class of service. So most of what we mail today is first class mail. Um And most of what you’d see large, a large commercial printer who is not enabled service print would be standard A. Uh ok. So, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:18:15 – 00:18:15

yeah, 

Jeff Bullas

00:18:15 – 00:18:26

so, um, in terms of you’re really using technology to make doing direct mail easier, faster and cheaper. Is that how you describe it? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:18:27 – 00:18:39

I would, I’d say, be more cost effective. I mean, um, yeah, and maybe, um, certainly in terms of, um, the amount of time and effort involved. Right. 

Jeff Bullas

00:18:39 – 00:18:40

That’s what I’m talking about. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:18:41 – 00:18:53

Yeah. One of the things that entrepreneurs, one of the mistakes entrepreneurs make I believe is they tend to look at their own time as being free. But, but, but time is one of those things you never have enough of 

Jeff Bullas

00:18:54 – 00:18:56

and you can never buy it. I’m sorry. Yeah, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:18:56 – 00:19:31

exactly. So, so I, you know, and, and if you look at the kind of thing we’re doing, I mean, I mean, literally when you go launch a campaign in 60 seconds, you’re in the mail tomorrow, the next day you’re delivered, you know, anywhere in the US within three days, usually with first class mail. Um and you’re gonna get, you know, feedback when it’s delivered, you know. So, I mean, it is a very powerful tool and I can explain why you might want to use direct mail rather than digital in some cases too. Um You know, if that’s a conversation you want to have. So, yeah, 

Jeff Bullas

00:19:31 – 00:19:46

so, ok, so that actually is one of the other questions I have. So, and how do you measure results is another question I have. Um Yeah, and um why should they use direct mail instead of email? So 

 Wilson Zehr

00:19:47 – 00:20:35

That’s a great question. It’s an important question. So I, I think that, you know, sometimes they are, the discussion comes down to why digital, why physical, you know, is, isn’t that stuff old? You know, why would I use that? And, and then, and yes, I, I mean, it’s been around for a long time like some other mediums have, but I would tend to look at it more like a toolbox, right? As a marketer, you need a toolbox with lots of tools in it and you need to be able to use the right tool to solve the right problem. And you know, and so, and so that’s really where we go with this. I mean, if we, if we think about um direct mail, the Direct marketing Association says on average, it returns $13 for every dollar invested. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:20:35 – 00:21:21

Um So that’s assuming a well targeted piece with a, with a well performing offer. So in general, if you’re using direct mail, the formula is a 70% list, 20% offer 10% creative, whatever’s left is creative. Um So we want to find the right audience and if we can, if we can make the right offer to the right audience, then good things happen, right? And so that’s really the formula. So it turns out that the list is the most important part, not the creative part, but most people focus on it the other way they focus on the creative part. Um So that’s a kind of an interesting dichotomy. 

Jeff Bullas

00:21:21 – 00:21:35

Yeah. Well, you need, we need, you need to have people that are actually the right audience otherwise it’s trying to sell, you know? Yeah. You don’t want to be selling something to someone who doesn’t like, ok, what do we want to sell? I want to sell fax machines to teenagers. Of course, that’s not going to work. So. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:21:36 – 00:22:18

Exactly. That’s why when you’re trying to boil the ocean, you’re just trying to send to everybody that’s not very effective. People can do that with tools like email marketing because the cost per send is very low. You know, if you’re doing a million emails, you may only pay a quarter penny a piece or something like that, you know, something very small. Um actually probably less than that. Um But if you’re sending direct mail, every piece you send out needs postage and postage costs money. So you’re gonna have to, in order to produce a return, you’re gonna need to make sure it’s very targeted and you have the right offer. The way to do that depends on the audience and it requires testing. Um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:22:20 – 00:23:06

So the question is why that, how do you measure? So that usually what we’re looking at is return on investment. So return on investment means dollars out versus dollars in, we have to make sure when we do that calculation, we have to factor in lifetime customer value. That’s a common uh mission, right? If I’m selling out, spending 10 bucks to get somebody to spend five, you say, why would I do that? Well, except he’s gonna spend five bucks a month for the next 12 months. Then that changes the equation, right? So, direct mail because it’s always been Roy or numbers driven, that’s why it survives because as soon as it stops making sense, people stop using it. But 

 Wilson Zehr

00:23:06 – 00:23:19

people are showing positive or I so they keep using it. And these days we have lots of people who are new marketers who’ve only, you know, been exposed to digital that are rediscovering it. So that’s kind of an interesting phenomenon. 

Jeff Bullas

00:23:20 – 00:23:44

It’s almost becoming unique. In other words, if I sent, you know, a digital colleague I’ve never met before, I’d send him a gift and it would arrive in the mail. That’s memorable because everyone does email, but no one sends things by snail mail. So yes, it’s very memorable. The other question I have is to talk about the target audience. Um Is there something you want to say about that or? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:23:45 – 00:24:03

Well, no, I would say I’m going back to your other point. You asked me before too. Um Why, I mean, you know, we’re talking about where this tool is, what’s unique about this tool if we think about a toolbox and I can tell you a story about some ways we use it. But there’s a couple of things that are about mail that make it very unique. Um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:24:03 – 00:24:41

First of all, it’s proactive, right? If I’m using Google ad words or something like that, which is a great tool, fine tool too, we use it. Um But I have to wait for people to come find me. But there are times when I just want people to find me, I want to find them, I want them to respond to my offer. So mail allows us to be proactive. It’s proactive communication. Secondly, mail can reach everybody in the United States six days a week, mostly. Um uh um I say mostly mainly, mainly because some businesses are not open six days a week. Some businesses are open only five days a week, but to the extent that they’re open, um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:24:42 – 00:25:28

I know how to reach them and, and, and I, and I can deliver a message to them. Um If you’re talking about something like email, um even though it has a cost, the cost of that, we talked about being able to connect with everybody is not even possible. Something like 35% of even legitimate emails never delivered spam filters and what have you. Um And the third, the third thing is that um is that the targeting, the lists are very well developed. So if I want to find Jewish dentist in New Jersey to purchase a car in the last six months, I can probably do that. I can probably get a mailing address but trying to do that for a digital delivery point is really, really difficult. Um 

Jeff Bullas

00:25:29 – 00:26:06

Yeah. So on the other question I have too about this is, um, is this more for targeting local, helping local businesses, um, or, or national organizations that are trying to reach local businesses? I’m just trying to think about it. He talked about things like dentists, he talked about, um, you know, florists and that sort of thing. So, um is that sort of like you’ve got the idea of a custom pro or the one that wants to send it? But the audience they’re trying to reach is more local rather than national. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:26:06 – 00:26:33

I, you know, it just depends on the, the, the customer and the application. Certainly, you know, if you’re, uh, you know, if you’re a florist or a pool cleaner or a realtor, then you’re probably focused on the local area and we see a lot of that, but we do have very large national organizations to organizations that send mail to people all over the United States because with some of those businesses we’re talking about, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:26:33 – 00:27:24

you know, the thing that makes those potential customers at Target is their location, right? They’re close to the place where we deliver a product or service, but there are some products or services that we might offer that are not location specific. So for example, imagine I’m trying to do this not direct mail specifically, but imagine I’m trying to do debt collection. Imagine if I’m a mortgage broker or trying to do cash out refi, I mean, there’s no reason why I just need to do that in Oregon. I can offer that product nationwide. Um So, there can be a local component, but it’s certainly not a requirement. Uh The better requirement is, is that, you know, that I have a good list and a good offer and um you know, I can generate a positive to I, 

Jeff Bullas

00:27:25 – 00:27:49

right? So in terms of measuring a positive Roy because um and and on the internet, it’s basically you can measure it, but sometimes I’m trying to work out, how did people discover me? What was the first click? And the click could have been, it could have been an ad, it could have been an seo it could be. So how, whereas how do you actually measure that? It’s actually the direct mail that’s produced it because 

Jeff Bullas

00:27:51 – 00:28:01

that’s actually not digitally recorded. So how do you do that? Is that because that’s the only marketing they’re doing at the time and it’s coded or something? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:28:01 – 00:28:46

No attribution. Attribution is I think what we’re talking about attribution is a big deal. You know, being able to figure out, you know, who’s responding to my offer, which ones are producing results and which ones are not typically with mail, we use a response device to do that, some kind of a response device. So a phone number, a certain number, phone number, fax number land, not that people use fax anymore, but historically specific landing pages. Um and, and we have the ability to our system to, to generate API so we can generate a PIN number that’s specific to a client, to a, to a client and to a campaign. And that pin number ID identifies where the piece came from. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:28:47 – 00:29:09

Historically, the biggest way that people identify that is by using a 800 number. So there is a toll free number. You could buy toll free numbers. There are lots of places to get toll free numbers and then you just program them to redirect to your office. But then at the end of the month, you can scan down your toll free numbers and you can see which campaigns are producing calls. 

Jeff Bullas

00:29:09 – 00:29:49

Right? OK. Right. That makes total sense because I used to do direct mail. I actually use facts for marketing and it was a lot of fun. So Jay Abrams was one guy that I used to use as my inspiration for direct marketing back in the 19 nineties. He’s been around a long time. So, all right. So you are generating data at the other end. Are you using your tool to actually create, save you time and be very efficient to actually create the direct mail that’s sent out by your partners? So, are you making sense of the noise and data because you’re trying to find signals in the noise? Are you using A I and there’s gonna be a segue from this? 

Jeff Bullas

00:29:50 – 00:30:00

Um Are you using A I to help you make sense of the noise? In other words, what’s working? What’s not? Um Are you doing that at all or that’s next or we never? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:30:00 – 00:30:33

Yeah, I would say we’re approaching a little bit differently. I mean, it’s um so when we’re doing, when we’re doing network routing and we’re looking out at the environment, we have to take a lot of factors into consideration. Um In today’s environment, everybody needs an A I story and that would be ours except I’m very realistic about it. When I talk to people, I say this is no, this is real intelligence, this is not artificial, you know, we’re looking at the factors in the network and we’re making decisions in an automated way. Uh 

Jeff Bullas

00:30:34 – 00:31:11

So, the other thing I want to ask too is OK. So what are the real numbers in terms of uh making it very efficient to send the mail? In other words, how do you reduce costs in terms of getting that all done? So what’s, what’s your numbers compared to other people doing direct mail versus you using your technology to do direct mail? Are there any statistics or numbers in terms of saving 20 percent of costs? Uh We deliver better faster. Um What’s your data? Tell you about you versus your competitors, for example. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:31:11 – 00:31:29

Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, I, I’m not sure that I have, you know, specific numbers that we quote in that way. I will say that if you, you need to be in the mail, you know, you have a piece of, uh, you know, male jobs is 50,000 pieces and you need to be in the mail tomorrow, the next day, we’re the only people that are gonna be able to do that for you. 

Jeff Bullas

00:31:29 – 00:31:36

Well, that’s the right answer. That’s what I was trying to find out in terms of making it easy and fast. Would that be a good summation? Yeah, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:31:37 – 00:32:00

easy, easy and fast. And we have automation. So if we need to do other interesting things, you want to hook it to AC RM or you wanna hook it into an application or you know, any other way that you want to um play around with mail algorithmically, we, we have the ability to do that because once we’ve captured it digitally, there’s lots of things we can do to it before we turn it into paper. 

Jeff Bullas

00:32:00 – 00:32:08

Right? The other question I have um is that it sounds to me like you’re only operating from the USA, is that correct? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:32:10 – 00:32:56

Um We’re only producing mail in the USA today, the USA and Canada. And we had a facility, a dedicated facility in Canada, but we weren’t getting enough volume. But if we have the volume that will return, I mean, the relationship still exists. Um I think this is one of the areas where I think Speedy has a really cool, really great role to play Speedy the application. They’ll even take a single letter. Speedy was designed to take the place of a postal meter. I’m not sure if you have those where you, you never heard of it. Ok. But here in the United States, a lot of large corporations have something called a postal meter. The leading provider in that industry forever has been a company called Pitney Bos. Um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:32:56 – 00:33:40

And the reason why they exist is because a lot of companies look at postage like money. And so they need an effective system that can manage this money. Like somebody, somebody might, you know, take off with the postage or send their own personal letters or what have you. So, they try to treat that postage as money. But, and the way that works is some people print the mail internally in the internal mail room and then they run it through the Pitney Bose machine. The Pitney Bose machine puts postage on it and then they still have to get it in the mail. But from our perspective, that’s really not the biggest part of the problem, right? I mean, so I mean, I know how to get stamps and I know how to get postage. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:33:40 – 00:34:18

Uh, the really hard part is that, you know, I have to create a letter, I have to print it. I have to fold it. I have to insert it. I have to address it. I have to address it properly. I have to get posted and then I still have to get it in the mail. Which if you are in a mail room means you still have to put it in a truck and drive it somewhere or somebody’s gonna come pick it up. So there’s a lot of pieces missing with a tool like speedy, you can just create the letter, push the button and boom, it’s gone. You just bypass that entire process and that’s here. That’s probably a $6 billion market. Postal meters. But 

 Wilson Zehr

00:34:18 – 00:34:59

Because of the way the tool is designed, consumers can use it in the same way a consumer can put a letter because we don’t care whether it’s a business or a consumer. And if, if you have your consumer who’s in another part of the world, you know, wherever that might be, um you know, if you’re in New Zealand, you could drop your letter on, on this icon. It will, you know, fly across the ocean electronically and end up in a queue here. Be be, you know, be batched, processed, printed, folded, inserted, mailed next day and at a fraction of the postage, you don’t have to pay international postage. Oh And by the way, nobody had to pay for any jet fuel to get it there. 

Jeff Bullas

00:35:00 – 00:35:02

Ok? So you’re distributing the distribution 

 Wilson Zehr

00:35:02 – 00:35:12

Yeah. So, if, if you’re doing international mail, if you’re in an international location and you’re sending mail to the United States, there is no more efficient way to do that. 

Jeff Bullas

00:35:12 – 00:35:53

Very cool. All right, I’m gonna segue to something very, very non direct mail because you’re in the middle of doing a degree, I believe at Harvard University. Or have done it on which has a lot of a i in it. I’m interested in it. Um And you’ve been in business for a long time, you’ve done six start ups, you’ve raised venture capital and it sounds like your brain’s running at a million miles an hour. Um, all the time. So you, you’re studying A I, what are some of the things that have fascinated you about A I and a generative A I, for example? And what are you, what are you learning? What are your insights from your Harvard experience, education experience about A I, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:35:54 – 00:36:20

I know A I is interesting but you know, the A I that we see today is a lot different than, well, I let me, let me back up and say even before the Hiri program, right? I started out as a software engineer and even back in the eighties when I started as a software engineer, people were talking about A I except A, I looked more like, you know, like hell from 2001 Space Odyssey. You know, the 

Jeff Bullas

00:36:20 – 00:36:21

The movie just sting. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:36:22 – 00:37:10

Exactly. So, uh along the way, people have tried inventing languages like Lisp and others, they’ve tried um creating knowledge bases, they’ve cried um expert systems, you know, that there’s been a lot of different incarnations of A I along the way. And in this particular case, we’re looking at large language models and they’re really looking at pattern matching and based on patterns that occur in data, different pools of data than being able to generate new ideas based on prompts. It’s completely different. I mean, artificial intelligence for me is more like, have you ever seen the movie Irobot Will Smith? I mean, that looks like artificial intelligence to me. But, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:37:11 – 00:37:47

but this is a step along the way. So I mean, all of that stuff has to evolve. Um because we’re doing pattern matching, there are some natural limitations built into it. Like there are lots of examples of, you know, people doing one plus one equals six. I said, well, how does that work? Well, because A I is not really doing the math, it’s just looking at an image of a one and an image of a one and it sees enough images of one that match it, you know, that are matched with an image of six, it just figures, that’s the way it should work, you know. Um The other thing I will say is I, you know, the, the 

 Wilson Zehr

00:37:48 – 00:38:21

The place I spent most of my research time, most recently, is on innovation, you know, diffusion of innovations and stages in the life cycle. I actually did a phd dissertation on it so that information is public, you can find it in um Google scholar. Um But basically, depending on the point of the life cycle, different kinds of innovation are different, more important whether that’s product innovation, process, innovation, marketing, innovation, organizational innovation. Um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:38:23 – 00:39:09

And when we’re talking about creativity and innovation that always brings me back to generative A I and I think that there’re some natural limitations and I’m not saying these will be overcome. I mean, people definitely will work on them. But if you think about the way people, the way A I would approach that with a large language model is they look at all the successful outcomes and based on these successful outcomes um or popular outcomes, they’re going to forecast a new one, but that’s not really what the way the innovation happens. Innovation is a process of trial and error. We learn as much from every mistake as we do from every successful venture. Sometimes more from every mistake. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:39:09 – 00:39:40

You know, they asked ST uh Edison one time, he said, you know, you failed 100 times making a light bulb. Why do you keep doing that? And he said, because every time I try I learn, yeah, there’s one more way I’m not supposed to do it and process of a limitation, it gets me closer to a solution. Um, but a I, the way it’s conceived of today doesn’t really go through that step. So there’s a whole bunch of, I think without having access to the mathematics behind it. Um, there are a whole bunch of 

 Wilson Zehr

00:39:41 – 00:40:31

false steps or mistakes that we don’t get to see and because we don’t see them, we can’t take off from them or evolve from them. Ok. And then the second thing is because of the way IA I is designed, it can never know when it’s finished, right? I mean, it, it doesn’t, the only way it can be finished is that the human says, oh, that works. That makes sense. Right? So, so it, not only can I not make the mistakes but it doesn’t, that process of going through the iterations to arrive at the finest final product is problematic too because I don’t have some, you know, some being there to say, oh no, that’s right. Oh no, that’s wrong. Take a right, take a left, take a, you know, have you ever done um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:40:31 – 00:40:59

brainstorming, you know, with a, with a group of people and you know, you’re in a room and the one thing you say, you don’t say that’s a bad idea. You just try to capture all the ideas you can say and then one person will say something and somebody else will say, oh yeah, they play off that and play off that and play off, you know, and, and that process is what leads to new innovations and new creations. But I think with the technology we have today, it’s difficult to get to that. Um It’s not impossible, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:40:59 – 00:41:22

which is trickier. Um So when we, we can use, um and most ideas, I mean, I mean, thinking out loud, most ideas are not really all seminal genius, right? All new ideas. A lot of times it’s a combination of old stuff, maybe even unrelated old stuff that we put together, you know, mail and the internet. So, 

Jeff Bullas

00:41:23 – 00:41:27

and, and sometimes the alchemy works and other times it doesn’t. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:41:27 – 00:41:40

Exactly. Yeah, I mean, I mean, if every pattern in the future, if every solution in the future is gonna look like all the patterns in the past then, then that’s not very interesting. Well, 

Jeff Bullas

00:41:40 – 00:41:42

there’s, well, there’s no future, then there’s no innovation. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:41:43 – 00:41:43

Yeah. Yeah. 

Jeff Bullas

00:41:44 – 00:41:46

Interesting. Yeah. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:41:46 – 00:41:58

So, II I think, I think it’s really cool and it’s exciting. People are doing some great things, certainly generative A I has a lot to bring. Um It’s not the holy grail A I, we’ve got a lot more to do. 

Jeff Bullas

00:41:58 – 00:42:43

We just started, we’re essentially two years in the democratization of A I which is Chat, G BT and Chat. So, uh what’s happened? I’m blown away by the velocity of change and development. Um And we’re seeing basically about a trillion dollars in data centers, you know, and investment in the large language models and so on. So the amount of money pouring in is going to cause a bubble. But again, we are laying the foundation for continuing to evolve A I to be our assistant to be our guide to be our coach. Because I think for me with A II I, I’m watching her going, all of us coming from a fixed path, brought up a certain way. We went to the same church, went to the same, um you know, 

Jeff Bullas

00:42:44 – 00:43:33

went to the same um you know, group football college, whatever it is, right? So we’re, and we got, we go to college. So we got, we’re all raised in bubbles, aren’t they? They’re different bubbles. So we end up having quite fixed thinking. And what I love about brainstorming where they are is that it can come up with a combination you haven’t even thought of, thought of. And that’s for me is that I think I can break our own vertical bubbles that trapped us in the past. But we need to be open to the future to find the innovation and recombination of the world’s intelligence, which is what’s sitting and knowledge, which is sitting in the cloud um in ones and zeros. Um So we actually, for me, I find it exciting because I ask a question of A I 

Jeff Bullas

00:43:33 – 00:43:52

and it’s tapping the world’s intelligence, the world’s wisdom, the world’s, you know, knowledge and it comes up in ways that I wouldn’t have thought of and then I can recombine it myself as well on top of that, but it breaks the bubble of our templated thinking that traps us almost in a prison of our own mind. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:43:53 – 00:44:35

Right? I mean, you think about some of the work with um, companies like do and others have done, right? The idea is that you, you know, you have, if you have groups that have diverse backgrounds and life experiences, yeah, then you can get better solutions. I mean, if you think about a Venn diagram and you know, there’s one person, they have a certain amount of knowledge and life experiences. If we have a lot of different people with non overlapping, you know, spaces, then our, our solution set, potential solutions set becomes much larger, exponentially larger. 

Jeff Bullas

00:44:35 – 00:45:18

Yep, that’s what I’m saying. And that’s what makes it exciting. Um And I think for me, I see A I as both an amplifier and accelerator of human intelligence um as our, you know, as a coach assistant that has almost perfect knowledge that can recall it in seconds. So for me, but it doesn’t mean that we hand over the keys of the kingdom to the A I, we actually use it as our coach and assistant to help us break boundaries down that we quite often as humans are locked in and that includes bias um includes, you know, racial gen whatever it is. But what it does, I think it opens our mind to a whole world rather than being trapped in our own world. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:45:19 – 00:45:57

Right? No, that’s true. I, I mean, the thing about A I is that from an algorithmic standpoint, it’s data driven. So we’re looking at the data and saying, what does the data tell us? But data can have bias. And so, you know, so if, if, you know, if, if you’re, you’re tapping into the articles from Fox News, you’re gonna get a different result than if you’re tapping in the articles from MS NBC, right? I mean, there’s, there’s bias in that data and, and the language model can’t tell it just, it’s just looking at data and aggregating it in the best way it can. 

Jeff Bullas

00:45:57 – 00:46:35

Yeah. And the other thing that I came across recently is the audience of sovereign I. I um because the trouble with capturing all the world’s data and putting it into one bowl of soup is that it all becomes homogeneous. And the problem with that is that then the world all starts to look the same which is boring as bat shit. I don’t want the world to look the same. I go to Europe to see Europe not to see Australia. Um So for me, I think human imperfection brings its own joy as well. And um you know, perfection’s overrated because a job done might as well fall asleep, right? But 

 Wilson Zehr

00:46:35 – 00:46:59

right, I mean, I mean, with some things, it’s the imperfection that makes it interesting. I mean, like, I mean, think about art, you know, Monet Degas, things like that. I mean, you could take a photograph of those images but what makes it interesting when the artist does it is to get, you know, their own take on it, you see it the way they see it with all its imperfections. 

Jeff Bullas

00:46:59 – 00:47:45

Yeah, it’s, it, that, for me too is done some blind testing within poetry and actually, um A I art in other words, poetry created with A I, they’ve done blind tests, people viewing it and say, tell me which one you like best. And the scary thing is that most people choose the A I generated art and poetry, which is a bit scary. But on the other hand, it’s rather interesting. I read Yuval Harari. Um you know, the guy that wrote SAPIEN, um he’s just written a book recently which he’s worried about A I because generative A I is starting to tell stories and what makes us human is our stories. Mm So, 

Jeff Bullas

00:47:47 – 00:48:20

and when you go to write an introduction, you know, humans are, humans are pain and happiness machines. We actually learn from pain and, or we don’t um we’re all trying to find our own story amongst all that noise. So for me, his worry is about the fact that um A I is gonna start creating stories that we believe and that will change humanity. So it’s quite a fascinating take on him. Because he’s very much into humans, unique in our stories. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:48:21 – 00:48:38

Yeah, the only thing that it makes me think about is the fact that a lot of the great literature and great art and, and music too, I mean, is driven by emotion, right? Which 

Jeff Bullas

00:48:38 – 00:48:42

is, which is your story that you’re telling, whether it’s whatever media it is 

 Wilson Zehr

00:48:43 – 00:49:19

and emotion is not data. I mean, emotion is something different than that. So I, I mean, I, I don’t think, I mean, you might be able to, to create a table that says, see this generate this emotion, see this generate this, but it’s still not gonna be authentic emotion that you’re trying to generate from a reader or viewer or somebody who’s engaged with your art. Um, I think it’s really tricky. I think, I think, I think you can do replication but you know, one of the things about music, I mean, I think about too in every generation, you have 

 Wilson Zehr

00:49:19 – 00:49:46

great bands, you know, we listen to rock music and some of that music, it’s not all just good music, some of it is angry, right? You get this anger or, you know, or, or, or love sickness or whatever whatever that emotion is and they manage to turn it into this powerful music that communicates that to somebody else, but that’s not just about data. I mean, that, I mean, there’s something more there, a lived experience. 

Jeff Bullas

00:49:46 – 00:49:59

Exactly. So for me, I’m fascinated by the intersection of human and machine. And I think machines actually ask us big questions like what does it truly mean to be human? 

Jeff Bullas

00:50:01 – 00:50:32

It’s a good point. Yeah. So no. Well, that, that’s what, that’s the fun is the journey, not, not arriving. Um Yeah. And uh so for me too, the homogenous nature of A I is that it’s basically not allowed to do bad things. So what sort of try to try and program it? So it only gives positive things. So I can’t sound angry otherwise it’s turned off. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:50:34 – 00:50:39

Well, if you, but if you want to capture emotion, you have to do all emotions, you have to do angry, 

Jeff Bullas

00:50:40 – 00:50:40

you 

 Wilson Zehr

00:50:40 – 00:50:40

know, 

Jeff Bullas

00:50:40 – 00:51:08

anger, joy, sadness. Exactly. So, all right. But anyway, I’m fascinated um and um I’m having fun exploring and writing about it. I write to learn, I read to get ideas and information, but they’re not gonna make sense of it. So, part of trying to make sense of it is actually having interesting conversations and hearing stories from smart, intelligent people all around the world such as yourself. So um 

 Wilson Zehr

00:51:09 – 00:51:10

Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, 

Jeff Bullas

00:51:10 – 00:51:24

It brings me joy. So that leads me and a segue to. So for you, Wilson, if you had all the money in the world, uh what would you do every day? That would bring you deep joy and satisfaction? 

 Wilson Zehr

00:51:26 – 00:51:55

It’s a great question. I mean, it’s an important question. Two. I mean, certainly one of the ways we measure success, we keep scores with money, but at least in entrepreneurship, um, that shouldn’t be the goal and that shouldn’t be the primary goal. And the reason why, and don’t let investors ever hear you say that. But the reason why is because, you know, honestly most start ups fail. I mean, they, they don’t, 

Jeff Bullas

00:51:55 – 00:51:55

 Wilson Zehr

00:51:55 – 00:51:55

think 

Jeff Bullas

00:51:55 – 00:51:57

it’s, I think it’s nine out of 10 or even. Huh. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:51:58 – 00:52:21

Exactly. A lot of entrepreneurs in order to do a number of start ups before they get one that gets traction is successful. So, so, and I’m not saying that to say you shouldn’t do it. I’m saying there has to be more in it, there has to be some other passion you’re pursuing or some other need you’re fulfilling. And if you can make a lot of money along the way, that’s a great thing too. Um, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:52:22 – 00:53:10

So for me, I really like to build things. I mean, I’d like to start with an idea, start with an idea that I think could change the world and then try to make it real. And if I can do that, that feels really good for me. And so there’s the initial idea, there’s additional things that work on it. We’re solving problems and in my case, because I can’t paint or sing or I’m using technology to do that, you know. Um, so I enjoy that a lot. And I like the idea of making a difference in people’s lives, making a tangible difference and making the world a better place. And if I can do that, using my art, which is technology, my art form, which is technology. And that’s a really good thing for me. 

Jeff Bullas

00:53:11 – 00:53:16

So you are doing what we’re designed as humans to be. And uh we are creators 

Jeff Bullas

00:53:19 – 00:53:34

and we are also watching over the millennia. We’ve seen that we are actually creative tools to help us do things better and faster and make a difference. And um you just said that what brings you joy is creating and I love that. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:53:35 – 00:53:43

Yeah, creating and, and sometimes understanding too, looking at a complex problem and just saying, I wonder why it works that way. Let’s find out 

Jeff Bullas

00:53:44 – 00:54:30

and, and that’s the other part of being human is um some have more of it than others. And that is curiosity. Yeah. For me, Joseph Campbell, um for me, uh which brings me joy and part of my creation is writing um and communicating and listening and trying to be better at it every day. Um As Joseph Campbell says, we, we, there is no essential purpose to our lives as humans except to follow your bliss. And um for me that is and following your bliss means you’re following your curiosity. What gives you joy? What, what sits inside you that 

Jeff Bullas

00:54:31 – 00:55:16

says when I do this defense, great, like you’re saying you’re creating from technology tools. Uh For me, I am curious about something and what I do now is, and I’ve done it for the last 15 years now since I started my blog on. Because I was curious about social media was to actually follow my bliss now by curiosity, but then create out of that curiosity. That’s um so I think of following your bliss and then actually creating something out of that. I think that makes me as human as I possibly can be. And, then paths will open and doors will open um that you never expected because we all think we got control at the end of the day, most of the time we don’t. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:55:16 – 00:55:45

No, no, I, I actually, I mean, I mean, I, I think there were good, great points and I talked with an entrepreneur one time. It was a gentleman who uh he started on a window company very successful, ended up selling it to Viking industries or something. And it was made millions of dollars, hundreds of millions of dollars. And I asked him, “What is your secret agreement? I mean, if you had to tell an entrepreneur, what’s the secret to being successful? What would you say? And he said, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:55:46 – 00:56:19

He said there are really two elements that you need to think about, think about spending some time thinking about one is think about your passions, everybody has stuff that they feel passionate about, feel strongly about. And he said, and then thought about your gifts, the things you’re really good at doing. Everybody has some gifts as well. And the right opportunity is probably the one that lies right at the intersection of those two things, something that you’re really good at. But that also brings you joy. 

Jeff Bullas

00:56:20 – 00:57:07

Yeah, that is a great point. And there is a fantastic model for success or for happiness. And it’s called the Ikigai model, which is out of Japanese philosophy, which is the intersection of those. And you’ve just mentioned the word intersection of those two. But check out icky guy, it’s really fascinating about what you are good at? What do you love doing also? What’s your experience? OK. And then what will the world pay you for? OK. So having a look at the icky guy model is fascinating, I think. And for me, it’s the best summation of, uh , what you should be doing in life sits in the intersection of all those questions. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:57:08 – 00:57:12

No, I’ll do it. It sounds great. I’d love to, yeah, I’d love to explore more. 

Jeff Bullas

00:57:13 – 00:57:37

So last question. Um I said the other one’s the last question, but this is, this is the last question. So as, as you over the years, um you’ve learned a lot as an entrepreneur, you’ve been an academic, you’ve learned a lot. So what are the biggest lessons about being in business and life that you um, have learned along the way. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:57:38 – 00:57:42

Mhm. And there’s this, I mean, there’s hunters 

Jeff Bullas

00:57:42 – 00:57:44

just give me, just give me 

 Wilson Zehr

00:57:44 – 00:58:41

three. I think the, the one that, um, well, I mean, I mean, there’s, there’s, there’s lots of big lessons, you know, fundamental lessons around, you know, about honesty and caring and, and being authentic and, I mean, I, I think those are pretty straightforward. Well, they should be straightforward. Um, but I think the one I’m, I’m playing with more these days is the one of understanding, um, planning and forecasting, especially with technology companies, but it can work in life too. So much of what I make decisions that I make today are based on the all alternatives I have to draw on today, but so many of those alternatives are only in place because of things I’ve done in the past. Right. So, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:58:42 – 00:59:13

you know, you see this when you coach, I coached football for, I don’t know, 10 or 12 years or something for a long time and you think about throwing a football, you know, you have to, if you’re the quarterback, you have to see how the field is developing and you have to go with, the player is going to be not where they’ve been, you know, deliver the ball where they’re, where they’re going to be, not where they’ve been. And that depends on what’s happening on the field, but a lot of that depends on practice on planning on the plays and the environment that you operate in. So as a business owner, 

 Wilson Zehr

00:59:13 – 00:59:44

I have to try and understand what’s happening in front of me, not just what I’m supposed to be working on today and, and so many of those, so many of those decisions depend on stuff that I’ve already done. So I have to think about what I have to do today so that I can make the decisions I need to make in the future. Um, and that’s really tricky. I mean, if you go out too far then who knows? There’s huge uncertainty because nobody knows what that looks like. Yeah. 

Jeff Bullas

00:59:44 – 00:59:47

The further at it goes it’s just like forecast the weather. 

 Wilson Zehr

00:59:47 – 00:59:57

Exactly. But if you get, if it’s too close to you, then it’s not that helpful. Right. You’re not prepared for what comes. So, how do you find the ideal scope? 

Jeff Bullas

00:59:57 – 01:00:06

And what are the important elements that you need to put in place? But if you can do that, I think everything tends to come together a lot more smoothly. Ok? 

 Wilson Zehr

01:00:07 – 01:00:23

Cool. Yeah. So Wilson, thank you very much for sharing your insights and your wisdom and experience and telling me and us some stories. Thank you very much. It’s been an absolute blast and um and uh thank you very much. 

Jeff Bullas

01:00:24 – 01:00:31

Well, thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. And thank you, I’ve learned, I’ve learned a bunch too. So I, I mean, it’s always a great exchange. 

 Wilson Zehr

01:00:32 – 01:00:38

Well, that’s, that’s where we sit around fires and tell stories, we learn off each other. Thank you very much. 

Jeff Bullas

01:00:39 – 01:00:39

Thank you. 

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