Finding Success by Pursuing Your Passionate Purpose (Episode 123)

Jeff Bullas

00:00:06 - 00:00:52

Hi everyone and welcome to The Jeff Bullas Show. Today I have with me, Will Wang. It is sometimes called William. I'm going to call him Will today because just like me, I used to be called Jeffrey. If mom called me Jeffrey. I knew I was in trouble. So welcome to the show, Will. It's a pleasure to have you. And I'm going to introduce you now a little bit. Wiill is the Founder and CEO of Growth Labz, a results focused marketing agency that specializes in helping B2B companies get qualified leads and dream clients and wouldn't we like that? So Will is a copywriter who regularly creates email campaigns to get 75%+ open rates and 25%+ reply rates.

So welcome to the show, Will.

William Wang

00:00:53 - 00:00:55

Thank you so much for having me. Great to be here.

Jeff Bullas

00:00:56 - 00:01:11

So Will, how did you get into this digital marketing thing? Because we all come to this through different routes and almost everyone I talked to who's a digital marketer never did a marketing degree. Isn't that interesting?

William Wang

00:01:13 - 00:02:09

Yeah, it's funny that you say if you’re not in university because I've gone back, and I've been a guest lecturer at university talking about marketing and I'll tell you what some of the text books and some of the things I had in textbooks about 50-60 years out of date. So my journey into this whole marketing thing was I've always been a little bit entrepreneurial. Always had side hustles going on throughout uni and a little bit into my working life. I used to sell websites on the side. As part of a gaming forum, I was a massive nerd. I used to play games and talk about games and forums and for some reason or another, just managed to end up picking up a couple of website gigs on the side. So build those websites, learn how to write four website and kind of transition with my father in law's business, which was a stonemason business and then build stone kitchen bench tops and use that to practice and make my way into marketing after I realized the whole corporate IT didn't work out for me.

Jeff Bullas

00:02:10 - 00:02:15

Right. So, you didn't want to become a white collar addict?

William Wang

00:02:16 - 00:02:32

Yeah, I saw my managers who is 40 years ahead of me, unhappy working for 40 years and I said no I can't do this for maybe five years but not 40 years. And yes, I kind of made my escape from that.

Jeff Bullas

00:02:32 - 00:03:37

Yeah, well I totally get that. I remember as a young whippersnapper teacher at high school, I was 21 and teaching, you know, 15 year olds not much younger than me and I was so full of life wisdom and everything. And as I started teaching, I looked at some of the older teachers and then I went, yeah, the really old ones like 45 went. Just like this, like they were 20 years into the gig and I went, they looked tired, they look burnt out, I went, so after five or six years of doing my teaching I went no I can't do this anymore. And sort of zigged to another vocation which is in the whole digital technology space.

So you saw a problem, I think too, isn't it that you worked out, I think, the digital agencies or people who are advertising your father's stone, stonemason business just weren't cutting it. Is that correct?

William Wang

00:03:38 - 00:04:37

Yeah it was a mixture of that and but primarily it was also just that during the process of trying to find an agency and this was a while ago, now it seems like every man in the dog has an agency. But this was back in the day where there weren't that many agencies or marketing people you could hire. It just seemed like there wasn't an element of caring. I, you know, they didn't really care what results they got for you. A lot of them only knew about this SEO thing which by their own admission, hey it might happen in six months but it might not and we just don't know. Yet they wanted a ridiculous amount every single month. So that's what I kind of stepped into and I said look there's gotta be a better way to do this rather than just relying upon a strategy which may or may not work and you won't know if for at least six months. So that's how I got started with things like Facebook ads, with things like direct mail, directly approaching building companies to be subcontractors, and all of that, trying to figure out how can we get results next week rather than next year.

Jeff Bullas

00:04:38 - 00:05:24

That makes total sense because search engine optimization, which is using the acronym SEO, which took me about four weeks to remember what it meant. I had to keep looking up the meaning of it when I was actually getting into digital. And the challenge with search engine optimization is making sure that your site can start ranking on Google's search results, as we know, appearing on the first page of Google is sort of like a bit of a holy grail. And the trouble is it takes time and you have to earn it. So what you've just described is I can't wait, I really need to be getting some results before six months turns up, is that correct?

William Wang

00:05:25 - 00:05:40

Exactly right. It was, you know, we want more leads tomorrow and we want more customers next week. What can we do to achieve that? And, you know, and in the search engine optimization as powerful as it can be long term, it just wasn't gonna cut it for us.

Jeff Bullas

00:05:41 - 00:06:23

Yeah. Yeah. So the reality is that you need to be working on both really, don't you? You need to be playing the long game, in other words, ranking down the track in 6 months, 12 months, 18 months, but also you need to be getting leads today like you said. So what was, apart from Google ads and Facebook ads, you mentioned that you have some copywriting skills and produce some great results like big opening rates at 75%+ and reply rates which is click through rates I believe. So how important is copywriting in getting that done?

William Wang

00:06:24 - 00:07:26

Yeah. So, oh I should also just say that reply rates were actually people emailing us back saying yes, I'm interested in having conversation. Yeah, so yeah, I mean copywriting is kind of everything as part of that because the difference with email and the rest of the marketing mix that we do is there's no graphics where you can put graphics in there, but it's not recommended when you called approach someone via email and it's literally, you know, they don't know you from bar of soap and you've got a split second to make an impression. So it's a very different form of copywriting. And there's a lot of great copywriters out there who can really verbalize their thoughts over a long web page that you have to scroll down and keep reading like a story and essay. But when you've got cold email you need to make a snap impression. That's a very different form of copy. So that kind of informed a lot of what we were doing. Obviously, there's a lot of trial and error, a lot of mistakes we made. But you know, copy was kind of everything that I built my company on and everything that we do to get our clients results is kind of based around this idea of having a really good copy.

Jeff Bullas

00:07:27 - 00:07:33

Right. Okay. So what are some of the secrets you can reveal about great copywriting?

William Wang

00:07:33 - 00:08:40

Yeah. I think as with anything in marketing, I don't think there's experience rather than secrets, right? Because I mean everything with marketing is so open out there, you can really go into someone's email game and break it down or like the funnels or which is like web pages and ads and really break it down. But the main thing that makes our work different to everyone else is the data that we had behind sending so many emails.

But when we first got started, it was more just about making mistakes and testing. Hey, how was the subject line working in the subject line? If you ask for a 30 minute call versus a 10 minute call, what's the results? And just really understanding, well, if I was the person receiving the email in the middle of my busy day, what it's going to get me to actually say yes to a 15 minute or a 10 minute phone call. So really mapping out the process that someone has to go through before they become a customer is key. And that's what something that people don't do enough of. I just think, let me just go get a phone call. And I'm just gonna spam 1000 people, but it never really works out that way. It is a very difficult plan approach.

Jeff Bullas

00:08:41 - 00:08:47

So you are proponent more of short copy that gets quick results. Is that right?

William Wang

00:08:49 - 00:09:59

I'm actually copy length agnostic. We've written code emails that have been quite lengthy because the subject needed that amount of space to kind of convey the right message. But on the other hand, we've also written code emails where it's literally two lines and it's worked well too, it really is super contextual on how aware of the situation the market is. I have seen you or what competitors do a lot. If I'm running from a garden company as a really bad example, I don't know why I said that, but for a landscape company, you don't have to write a long enough to explain what it is that you do. People know what it is. But in software where you might have a new product that changes the way that people work or think or feel, then you might go a little bit longer and really explain contextually why you think it's a good fit for them to be receiving this email. So it really depends on what industry you're in, the complexity of your product, you know, the scale and the buying process of your audience. There's so many different factors that go into it but length is really more of a function of, can you get your message across succinctly? If you can then it doesn't really matter how long or short the copy is.

Jeff Bullas

00:09:59 - 00:11:49

Yeah. So I've heard from a writing point of view, your job as a writer is actually, is to write one line that will get the person to read the next line, and then to read the next line, in other words, as a copywriter, and as a writer is to get people reading, is to draw them into the content and there's a bit of an acronym floating around, which I didn't know. I thought it was just a typo recently and it's called TL-DR. Too long, didn't read. I'm going, that's interesting. Well, I suppose we live in an age of Snapchat and TikTok. So let's talk a little about that in terms of copywriting and getting people to click. So we've got TikTok and we've got videos, we've got Snapchat videos, we've got expiring content. And there's no right or wrong answer to this because it depends on who you're trying to reach, retails, entertainment is a B2B. In fact, people say it's not B2B or B2C. It's just, it's basically human to human. We're trying to communicate with a human, who's going to click and buy.

So, let's first talk about too long, didn't read. Have you had an experience with that acronym and what you think about that and you just talked about that shorter or long content doesn't matter. If it's a complex topic, you're gonna have to write longer copy to explain what you mean. If it's a gardening place, I want to buy a, you know, a rose that's not complex. So let's talk a little bit about too long, didn't read acronym and what you think of that and where does it come from?

William Wang

00:11:50 - 00:12:57

Yeah, I think it comes from, could be read it to potentially. Because people tend to pose massively long things and read it and then they summarize the longer read. It's a one line summary, which you know, when I write a code in my copy, I go back to, hey, are there any points in here where we can go, this is too long and I just didn't read it and we can summarize in a single point. So for example, the way I think about cardinal copy is I'm taking a full on sales letter, which is chunky and using 200 read and condensing it into a single email with just a few lines on it.

So, but the skill in that is, well, what do I say in this email that went from, you know, that went from a five page sales letter to a three line email. What is it, the stuff I have to put in here. So I do like that, I do like the acronym, I subscribed to the idea that the code email should be a field and but at the same time, you don't want to miss the point to have the wrong point in there.

Jeff Bullas

00:12:58 - 00:14:11

I think with the, a good writer always has a really good editor generally. And the challenge as a writer is to remove words that actually are just fillers. And the challenge as a writer, whether it's a copywriter or whether you're writing a book is you know, visualization and novels, it's maybe a little bit of a different thing. But if you're writing a nonfiction book is to go, okay, you can take a 20 word sentence and remove about half of it if you're really, really brutal. And it actually will be more impactful because it's not too long, didn't read. It's I read it because it had everything I needed in it. So, the art of writing is certainly great, and I really invoke editors quite often when I write and going, okay, be brutal, you can strip out 10-20% because the challenge is a writer is that you gave birth to the words and the sentences and the paragraphs. So they're like your children. So when someone edits your work, it's like, they're killing your children.

William Wang

00:14:14 - 00:15:43

But the way, it's really interesting that you can come at it with that perspective, because I think my process of writing actually takes a lot of emotion out of it because if it's I find that it's my first draft, I get quite attached to my first draft and I think this is an absolute masterpiece. How dare you edit this? So what I actually do to get around that is in my own process, I know that I've got two edits of my own writing before I give it to my editor. So I'll, I'm actually very old school. So if you look around my desk, which I don't know if you can see, I've got a whole bunch of really good pens, fountain pens and a load of paper. And you know, I'll, my first draft is always done on pen and paper. I would then go in and stick it into these drawers behind me here for at least 24 hours, 48 hours if possible. 24 hours, I should say if I wanted a massive time crunch, I'll then not look at it for 24-48 hours and then I'll take it out of that and I'll use a red marker and go and strip out and edit and do all that kind of stuff until I write it onto my second draft. I mean I'll write that onto the paper again and then I go for the same process, taking the drawer 24-48 hours and the third time I'll take it out, I'll remove what I think needs to be removed. And it's always removing, I'm never adding, I'm always removing things and I'll then type it up and send it to my editor and then she would then go through and go, hey, there's still 10% if you can get rid of. And after that stripped away, then it's pretty close to the finished product.

Jeff Bullas

00:15:44 - 00:17:28

I like that. I've heard that before in terms of write it and then put it away for a day, 24 hours. The other thing I've been experimenting with recently over the last couple of years is I always take my phone with me, not because I'm a phone addict. But because what I love about a phone is I have an idea that comes up while I'm walking and it might be just a headline, it might be the first line or might be just an idea. So the phone for me is like my writing pad. And for me, what I love about that is that I can write it down and quite often I get drawn into continuing to write. And that means what I love about that is I don't need to translate. There is no right or wrong. As writers, you've got to find what works for you. What's great is you've got different pens and paper around your desk. I use my phone as just notes on my iPhone, right? That's all I use. It's great for poetry by the way, because it keeps the sentences really short. So that's my way of capturing ideas that I can then share to my email that I can then put into a Google Doc because it's quite efficient because one of my signature strengths is a maximize or I don't want to waste time. I don't want to rewrite it, but that's just me. So I think all these writers were going to find a way to tap into our own superpowers and it's got to work for you. There is no right or wrong on this.

William Wang

00:17:30 - 00:18:22

Exactly, just find a process that works for you. You know, and I think it's more, for me writing or getting better as a writer, it's more about progression over perfection. So obviously if you do it for a job, it's kind of very different. For me, copywriting is a very different proposition and for someone who doesn't need to get paid on their writing skills. So there's a different outlook from them. But if writing is just something that you're doing for your own business or to improve, because there's a general interest, volume is key. And even for a copywriter like myself, when I'm creating a copy for myself with my client, I'm writing 20 to 50 really bad headlines and I'll just write the headlines out. So I know that I can't get to the good stuff until I get crept out of the way. So I'll literally write 50 headlines knowing that 45 would be absolutely rubbish. So that's my process.

Jeff Bullas

00:18:24 - 00:18:35

I love the fact that you're at 40-50, I haven't heard of that many, I've heard of 30 that was written by but I might write 10 to 12 but 40-50. That's very cool.

William Wang

00:18:35 - 00:19:06

It's a, you have to stretch your imagination but you come up with some crazy stuff that sometimes just happens to work. So I mean I don't always see those numbers. It's more of a time constraint rather than a constraint on space or on haven't hit an exact number. I just tend to set my timer at 45 minutes and just write for the full 45 and sometimes it might mean I only get 20 headlines, sometimes I hit 60, it's not about the number of headlines, it's more just thinking for the process and giving yourself time to think through it.

Jeff Bullas

00:19:07 - 00:19:32

Okay, so let's touch on data, you said that one of the most important things for you guys and for yourself is that the reason you can get those open rates and replies is because you're using data. What's your data process to, in other words, to measure the success or failure and the whole spectrum in between for your copy?

William Wang

00:19:34 - 00:20:30

Yeah, it's a long term approach to data because we've been sending out a mass amount of emails for about the past four or five years now. So we've got a lot of data sets we can look at. What we tend to do is every single campaign we run for ourselves. Our clients split test so we test different subject lines and different body what goes into the emails against the travel. So every single campaign gets split test, we record the results into a spreadsheet and I record some kind of very. you know, top level thoughts or insights into why I think it's one. But over time what you start seeing is just this massive spreadsheet with a bunch of different trends or headlines that look very similar and we can look at and go well hang on these headlines look similar. These open rates are similar. Here's my thoughts against him as we ran the campaigns. Do we think this is, you know, the cause of open rates or such a high open or such a low open rate?

Jeff Bullas

00:20:31 - 00:20:47

Yeah. So you do a split test. So you put them into spreadsheets and then you put them, file them under categories or you put file them under customers. Is it just a Google Spreadsheet?

William Wang

00:20:49 - 00:21:17

It's just a simple Google Spreadsheet. We do it both. We, most of the time, in some of the customers because that's how we report back to customers. We report back hey this test one. So that's the easiest way for us to track the data. We've got a master spreadsheet that we use across the business which is internal only. And it's got every single customer at the bottom and every single split that we've ever done for them within those tabs. So it's a massive document. Lots of tabs, lots of insights you can get as you drive into those tabs.

Jeff Bullas

00:21:18 - 00:21:45

That's awesome because catching or capturing data like that is certainly going to help you improve your copywriting. Also improve your results and that's why great results. Now tell us more about your business. So what you are basically trying to do is help your father grow his business. So when was the aha moment you said I can do this better than the people that I've been hiring. When did that happen?

William Wang

00:21:47 - 00:23:03

It wasn't so much that I think we didn't really end up hiring an agency just because there was none that kind of fitted. So it wasn't that I knew I could do better than them. I think it was more just me wanting to leave corporate IT. That's what used to be in. And then I looked at it and I said well what can I do? Like what can I, how can I replace this six figured corporate salary? And there were so many different things online at that time, affiliate marketing selling for products and courses and things like that. But at the end of the day, I needed to replace a corporate salary which was fairly decent salary as quickly as possible and trying to sell $20 widgets was just never going to happen to replace the salary itself. So the next logical thing was, well I'm doing this thing marketing as a side gig, as a favor to my father in law and for a few of his mates coming around saying oh you know that was a great website built on for me. Next logical thing was well can I turn this other thing I'm doing that I actually kind of enjoy writing and turn it into my full time gig. So that's how I kind of progressed from IT into copywriting and copywriting into this agency that we've got kind of naturally built itself around the services that we were getting asked for.

Jeff Bullas

00:23:04 - 00:23:11

So what is, so that agency started called Growth Labz, Growth L A B Z?

William Wang

00:23:12 - 00:23:13

Yeah.

Jeff Bullas

00:23:14 - 00:24:01

What makes you guys different to your competitors? A lot of agencies go out there and do SEO and we know that's a really tough gig because Google keeps changing the rules. And it's challenging, I also trying to maximize time on site for them rather than giving traffic to the people to create the content. In fact I wrote an article which we're gonna publish this week is titled “Is Google stealing your content?” So they're trying to maximize their revenue by using other people's content in the name of user experience. So what makes you guys different and what do you guys do that sets you apart?

William Wang

00:24:02 - 00:25:51

Every time I get asked a question I like, it's a really interesting question because there's two parts. One is I don't really pay a lot of attention to our competitors in that, you know, there's so many different types of agencies doing so many different types of services. We, for one, don't even offer SEO, like I just want to touch it because I'm impatient. My clients are impatient for results tomorrow. We don't offer the service. We never offer it as something that we do for clients because we don't even do it for ourselves, right. Which is, which is kind of probably one of the main things that differentiates us. We just, what we're really good at and what our clients love in terms of working with us is that, you know, and most of my clients just give us some context. They're B2B businesses, they've got a high value services. I client to them is worth a minimum $10-$20,000. So then for us, it becomes very easy to say, well, here's our fees, hey, if we get you five or six of these clients that easily pays for the stuff that we're going to do, you know, so that makes it really easy conversation and we were so good at understanding the buying process of the high ticket cell versus like widget and we just don't do B2C. We don't do retail, it literally give me a software program that you sell for $100,000 and we'll get leads to sell it for you. So that's kind of our specialty.

So that with the copywriting that we've got the B2B specific copywriting, I think that's what's getting our clients results and just the care and attention that we've got. So some of our clients, we've actually invested into the business or we do revenue share deals with their business. So we're really tied into the same end goal that they've got. Let's make them money and for every dollar we make them, we might take 10 cents. So that's kind of how we've aligned our business with those of our clients.

Jeff Bullas

00:25:52 - 00:26:11

Okay, yeah. So you're targeting, like you said, you're trying to avoid the widget, you're trying to target high ticket item client B2B. So let me ask you another question. Do you do any writing for yourself that's not used for marketing and just do it for fun?

William Wang

00:26:15 - 00:26:41

This is gonna sound really, really funny and I don't know how PG this is gonna be, when I'm on a psychedelics, I love writing, it's my channel into self expression. Yes, I do, but with the aid of only special moments.

Jeff Bullas

00:26:42 - 00:28:08

Okay, I quite often write while I'm walking actually or a quiet moment, I dedicate an hour or two each day to sitting down and reading and as I read, I get ideas and then that can turn into a poem or it could turn into something else. As in, you know, the start of an article. It might be that my recent one about Google, what we're gonna publish this week, which I mentioned is more about being a practitioner of SEO without being a practitioner of SEO since 2009 because I end up getting great traffic from Google originally because it was just blunt force trauma. I just create a lot of content. But what I just got over the years is even despite creating that content now, Google's that are imposing rules on you, penalizing if you don't obey their rules and also changing the rules that suit them, not you. So, this sort of like secret pact with Google and the index, you know, the content of the world and share it with everyone and do no evil has become a little bit different. So you gotta pay the shareholders and they have, they're not making enough money apparently. So you, so what's the next thing for Growth Labz and what are you passionate about moving forward into this the next few years?

William Wang

00:28:10 - 00:29:50

Yeah, I mean where they even begin, we're going through a phase now where I mean us as an agency, we worked with some amazing clients doing some work that we really enjoy. So one of the things we're starting to do is to get really picky with new clients that we bring on board just because things are going well, the team working well clients are great. We want to make sure that we maintain that. So we are actually going to start filtering clients even more strongly that we really have, but on the same side of it we're also acquiring businesses, we're partnering with new businesses to bring them on board you know, with equity with profit share, share all of that. So it gives me a really interesting insights into the world of business, you know, we've got other services that we’re spitting up so I've got an amazing team of virtual assistant, so we've got a service that we've sold numerous times but we've never talked about it, it's not on any website, we've placed virtual assistance for our clients and we've sold enough times where people, my clients themselves been like dude, you should absolutely into service. We've hired five VA and they've been amazing, but you don't talk about this anyway, so that's probably something that we're going to look at doing as well as creating more content. So you know, it's at the point where business for us, I think there's room to help others do the same. I leave a corporate job that they don't like, so over the next 24 months, I might be trading more content around becoming a freelancer and following the path that we've done to go into freelancing and to to build this agency business, so what's happening, but you know, we'll just throw a whole bunch of the wall and see what sticks really.

Jeff Bullas

00:29:50 - 00:30:09

Yeah, so just to wrap it up, what would be some of your top tips to anyone who wants to go into the world of being an entrepreneur or start a side hustle because you've done both. In fact quite often side hustles become main hustles and that's really what you ended up doing, wasn't it?

William Wang

00:30:10 - 00:30:11

Yep, yep. Exactly.

Jeff Bullas

00:30:12 - 00:30:27

So what would be similar tips for anyone that's a little afraid of stepping into the main ring of being an entrepreneur, into the bullring of being an entrepreneur? What would be some of your top tips for anyone that's afraid to make the move?

William Wang

00:30:29 - 00:32:27

I've got a couple. The first one is, it's a mistake that I made which is leaving my corporate job too early, I think if I'd stayed in my job for an extra six months and just gritted my teeth and go through it, my business would have grown exponentially faster than it has. So that I think is one, you don't leave security because we're gonna make some bad decisions and bring us someone clients and you're gonna reek of desperation. Exactly. So if you've got a job, you're building a side hustle, building until truly, really can't support you leaving your job. I think that would be my main tip, which I know for me, I'm impatient of life. That was, if I heard myself, I'd be like, no, I'm not listening to that, but I forgot to put it out there because having walked the path, I know that if I did give it another six months, I think I would have been at least 18 months better off in terms of my growth rate. So that would have been the first one. I think the second one is, you don't have to be passionate about your side hustle. You don't have to be passionate about TikTok, you don't have to, if you just got to be passionate about being good, about giving value to your clients. And I think, you know, if you're talking about passions, I mean, my passions were, you know, playing video games and eating pizza, but you can't turn that into, I mean, nowadays you probably could, but back in the day it was hard to turn playing video games into a full time career, right? So I think one thing that I got really lucky with was I just found that I enjoyed being good at copy rather than, you know, the process is hard work and all of that, but I enjoyed when I wrote really good copy. And so it was the enjoyment in the process and the pride of doing good work that really helped me, sustained me over the past few years. And you know, it's why I wake up in the morning to write really good copy for my clients and ourselves, so find something that you can be passionate about being good in rather than being passionate about.

Jeff Bullas

00:32:28 - 00:33:21

I love that. In fact, what you've just stated is that your passionate purpose, which is essentially comes down to your signature strengths. And obviously writing for you is a signature of strength, in other words, you want to get the words right? So you convey the right message and you're willing to dive into the rhythm of it, the message of it, the distilling of it. That's a signature strength for you, obviously. Okay, so that's a passionate purpose rather than just a passionate hobby, which is yeah, eating pizza and playing video games. There's a big difference, I think between what you sort of love as a distraction, which is could be seen as a passion, but we know quite often isn't versus your passionate purpose, which comes down to what are you bloody good at?

William Wang

00:33:23 - 00:33:24

Exactly. Exactly. Right.

Jeff Bullas

00:33:25 - 00:33:59

So what you're doing is you're doing what you're really great at and you enjoy doing at the same time, and I think especially corporate tries to help you overcome your weaknesses when they should be doubling down and helping you build your strengths. And that's where the joy rises, the happiness and the passionate purpose becomes really quite magical and you don't feel like you're working, it feels like you're playing because you're on purpose.

William Wang

00:34:01 - 00:34:52

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I, it's funny because one of the weekends, a little while ago I was working on weekend, and I had a friend who is saying, don't, like why do you work in the weekends? You know, like what's going on? Are you that busy? Are you that stress at work that you've got to work on on Saturday? And I looked at it and said, well, actually, no, but I've been really wanting to write a copy for ages, and, you know, I just feel like I just had to write it today. And so it's one of those things where, you know, if you can find enjoyment in what you do, like for me turning up here every day, it doesn't feel like work. It's, I get to play, I get to experiment, I get to do something I'm really good at and get rewarded handsomely for it. And for me it's so fulfilling to do that. Yeah, it's going back to the exact point that you had, you know, what you're passionate purpose.

Jeff Bullas

00:34:53 - 00:35:06

Yeah, and I think our job in life is to find what that passionate purpose is, and there's the old saying, which if you discover that you'll never work another day in your life.

William Wang

00:35:07 - 00:35:08

Exactly.

Jeff Bullas

00:35:09 - 00:35:44

So thank you, Will, for sharing your expertise and passion, passionate purpose, and thank you for sharing your journey and some of your wise advice on how you transition from corporate to being an entrepreneur and there's no right or wrong on this. It's just finding a way that make sure that you don't turn to a starving artists get so stressed out that nothing works. So thank you very much for sharing your expertise and experience and sharing your gifts with the world. It's fantastic. Thanks, Will.

William Wang

00:35:45 - 00:35:47

Thanks so much for having me on.